I just picked this up. It is an E. Howard, 23 jewel in a 14k Howard case. Is this the Series O model. It is not marked. SN 1054124, case 113809

Dial

The picture of the movement needs to be in focus to make a correct assessment, but, if the 2 jewel screws on the regulator are vertical or upright, then you are correct.

If the 2 jewel screws on the regulator are horizontal, it could be the E. Howard mfg. by Waltham.

It looks to be the regular E Howard "Unmarked" 23 Jewel variety to me. There is a listing in the book for the "Unmarked" variety. I don't see an exposed click on the ratchet wheel, the ones mfg by Waltham had the exposed click so I am 99% sure it is the "Unmarked" variety.

regards,
bb

Pinning of the hairspring is typical Keystone Howard Buster, hard to see but the jewel screws are across the balance as well, so probably not manufactured by Waltham.

Yeah I'm sure it's not the one mfg by Waltham either. They're nice watches. Howard was a top of the line watch and most RR men wouldn't/couldn't afford them back in the day as they were a little higher priced than a Hamilton, Illinois, or Waltham.

regards,
bb

Thanks, Buster and Bila for the info. I will try to get better pictures in natural light tomorrow. Is there a preference for either the unmarked one or the Waltham model?

Use to be a preference for the ones mfg by Waltham, but today I don't think there is much difference, except to the true collector who wants one of each model or variant.

The dial is in great focus, just the movement is out of focus, however through deducing, it's the "Unmarked" variety and not the Waltham mfg one.

regards,
bb

I respectfully disagree with Buster. I think Waltham-Howard bridge models command a special premium over other Keystone-Howards. I think this is especially true for very early ones that bear traces of Howard's pre-Keystone days, such as my 14k Keystone-cased 21j Waltham bridge hunter, which was delivered to Howard in 1902, before its sale to Keystone, and signed E. Howard & Co., not the later E. Howard Watch Co. signature Keystone used. Only about 60 Waltham-Howard bridge model hunters were made, of which only about 25 were 21 jewel models.

Back

Dial

Movement

Beautiful watch Ethan.

As to "rarity", I know you are correct no doubt especially when the early "hunter" models such as yours are brought into the thread. But today the later open face such as is the topic, get about the same prices whether its a Waltham mfg one or a Series O. Now the true collector will look for the Waltham bridge model over the Series O and that will always be. I had rather have the Waltham bridge model personally as you would also. The hunter models are a different animal with different collectors, different following, and different pricing, IMO.

I know where there is a later E. Howard Waltham mfg 23 Jewel Hunter in a Howard 14K case. If you are interested Ethan, contact me.

regards,
bb

Bila, thanks for the compliment. I am not a railroad watch collector, nor do I have any special interest in railroads, but this watch has a railroad connection. It is inscribed "Presented to D.M. Perine by the employees of the Pittsburg Div. Shops as a token of their regards, August 1st 1903." David M. Perine was a Master Mechanic for the Pennsylvania Railroad Company and this watch was presented on the date he was transferred from his position with the Pittsburg Division Shops over to the West Philadelphia Shops. There is some terrific information about Perine available with a Google search and a short biography which includes the above information can be found at this link..

Buster, thanks for letting me know of the availability of a later Waltham-Howard bridge model, but I already have a nice one in its original Keystone-Howard 14k case, one of the about 400 made.

Movement. Note how the two short bridges/cocks differ from those on the earlier 21j version. The earlier ones are slightly curved.

Buster, I have sent you a private email with regard to the later E. Howard Waltham mfg 23 Jewel Hunter in a Howard 14K case.

Cheers,
Bila

Better photo.
Buster, I would be interested in the Waltham 23 jewel that you know of if someone else has not already spoken up for it.

Buster, you wrote distinguishing

quote:

early [Waltham-made] 'hunter' models such as [mine from] later open face [Waltham-made Howards].

That implies that Waltham made movements for Howard for a long time. As you likely know, it only made movements for Howard from 1902-1905, ceasing when Howard had geared up to make its own movements. I think Waltham only made several styles of bridge and 3/4 plate movements for Howard.

Yes, thanks for clearing everything up Ethan.

regards,
bb

Pretty amazing to have two people of this calibre weighing in on a watch style for which there is very little historical record. It's a pleasure to read and learn. Thanks Ethan and Buster!

Why yes thank you Mike, I remain Ethan's colleague and understudy.

regards,
bb

I am a little confused. You say that Waltham only made movements for Howard 1902-1905, yet I am looking at a Waltham-Howard SN 1000360 which would have put its production as 1909 according to the Book.

Despite Mike's generous accolade, I am not a Howard, Waltham, or Keystone-Howard expert. That said, it is my understanding that Waltham only made movements for Howard or Keystone-Howard for a few years, starting shortly before Howard was sold to Keystone and ending when Keystone had geared up to make all its own movements. The inventory of Waltham-made Keystone-Howards was not fully sold for some additional years after manufacturing stopped. It further is my understanding that 16-size Waltham-Howard bridge models have serial numbers in a few specific ranges: H803,xxx H829,xxx H834,xxx 1,000,xxx and 1,005,xxx and that Keystone later repeated the use of some of the 1-million numbers on their own movements (12-size and 16-size).

The Complete Price Guide (which you call the "Book") likely is referring to the reused serial numbers in its date table. Notwithstanding the "Book," I date my 23j Waltham-Howard bridge watch to 1905, even though its serial number (1,005,282) is higher than the one you cite.

To help one understand and put you in "sync" Ken [and others interested], we will have to delve a bit into the history of the E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone), which will be priceless to you in the future, as it has been to me !!

In 1901 the E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone), announced their plan to start producing a new line of watches and in the Fall of 1902 it was reported in the Jewelers’ Circular that “The E. Howard Watch Co. is at work on its models and expects soon to submit to the trade samples of watches of high grade in men’s sizes. Ladies watches are receiving some consideration and will be taken up later.” Unlike the "old" E. Howard & Co. the new company's men’s watches were to fit standard cases and these movements were first made for E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone), by Waltham. In December of that year the E. Howard Watch Co. received it's first shipment of 16-size movements from Waltham. By February 1903 the Howard watch business, including machinery and trademarks, was purchased by Keystone, and Waltham continued producing movements for them at least through 1905.

So the first 16-size, 23-jewel Howard watches were built by Waltham. Those movements that were built for the newly organized E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone), by Waltham, until that firm could get its own production started up, have serial numbers into and over the 1,000,000 range. When the E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone) began manufacturing their own movements, they used serial numbers that conflicted with those already used on the Waltham-Howard built watches. This conflict has caused considerable confusion among collectors and it continues to do so today.

This means that determining the date of manufacture of a given movement is very difficult beyond a very few dates and may result in errors of perhaps as much as 10 years, or more. The mismatch of serial numbers with those of other series or grades of movements is especially noticed and seen usually in the more exclusive watches, such as Series 0, Series 1, and Series 10, because the more expensive watches tended to sell slower than the others and sit on factory shelves for longer periods of time. Even until today, the very best that we can do to approximate the date on many of these E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone) watches continues to be inscriptions/presentations carved into the cases of these watches by jewelers for individual owners !!

Since the Keystone Watch Case Co. purchased the rights to use the Howard name on watches sometime around 1903, and the firm had watches built under the E. Howard name by the American Waltham Watch Co., it is thought that Keystone then "finished" these watches at the New York Standard Watch Co., a firm, based in New Jersey, and owned by Keystone. Now it may be that they merely took the movement, put a dial and hands on, and placed the movement in a case and called it "finishing".

By 1905 Keystone-Howard began producing its own watches, for which they charged a premium, for the next 25 years. This all came to a sudden stop in 1930, when the company (Howard, not the parent, Keystone), like so many others, became a victim of the Great Depression. The rights to the Howard name for use on watches was subsequently sold to Hamilton.

[Information shared from my notes/Google/Inter-Web/The story of Waltham, E. Howard & Co. and the E. Howard Watch Co. and their Bridge Model Watches/E. Howard Watch Works, Boston, MA, 1910/American Pocket Watches I.D & P.G./Vintage American Pocket Watches, Dials, & Cases/other publications/etc.]

Most all of the information that I sometimes share with others to help/participate, "fill in the blanks", contribute to questions asked, on any and all subjects, comes from being a "student" of horology/history, making mistakes, experimentation, reading, listening, and heeding to the real experts, of which I surely am not.

regards,
bb

Keep chatting guy's , I am learning a wealth of knowledge , thanks

Kevin, I am not a Waltham-Howard expert. My very good friend Jerry Treiman and his colleague Carl Goetz are the experts. Jerry taught me nearly everything I know about Waltham-Howards. Jerry and Carl are likely the source of most of the information Buster has relayed. We all should appreciate Jerry's and Carl's contributions to Waltham-Howard knowledge.

Is there any significance to why there is an "unmarkrd" Series O model? Is there a difference in value?

I think the significance is largely due to RR mandates & requirements in 1906 when the Model Number and Positions were required to be placed on RR watches. Before 1906 it wasn't important and it was almost a "trade secret" if you will, among the parent companies and their dealers to NOT put that information on their watches !! This in turn kept most folks from shopping around for best or better price on a particular model !!

As to value most true collectors want the "Fully" marked examples and will pay a premium for them. Then there are other collectors who will desire to have at least one of each "variant" to complete their collections.

regards,
bb

I would guess that my watch, 1054124, would have been made in the 1909-10 timeframe. Would not that have qualified it to be a "marked" version?

The preponderance and corroboration of evidence already posted comprehensively and taken from advanced researchers & published authors, [not posters who merely relay said information], suggests that production dates may be off 5-10 years [+/-] and perhaps more.

As an example, "The Complete Price Guide" is not correct on some production dates and should be taken as a "guide only" to start one on a quest for advanced information for a particular specialty of a persons choice.

[>> Out of the "Published" figures of the Series "O" and the estimated runs of BOTH H/C & O/F Versions, your #1054124 came from the 7th RUN of 24 RUNS of 15,350 TOTAL PRODUCTION of Series "O" made BY E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone).

Leaving out the H/C versions of the Series "O" made BY E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone) of 8 RUNS which 2,850 TOTAL PRODUCTION H/C's were made;

Then considering only the O/F versions of the Series "O" made BY E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone), then your #1054124 was in the 4th RUN of 16 RUNS of 12,500 TOTAL PRODUCTION of them, or in the first 25%, so we can logically assume and theorize perhaps that it was made early on in the production process of the Series "O" by E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone). <<]

Pinpointing the exact serial # of the last "UNMARKED" one and the first "MARKED" one would involve a complete data base of which I don't have, or have not seen a copy of the Series "O" E. Howard Watch CO. (Keystone) designating when the "MARKED" examples began. While that would be nice to know, it would still not give us an exact date of "finished" and "sold" of a particular watch by the E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone)....

regards,
bb

Just to add to the mix, I have an E. Howard Watch Co. Hunter case S# 1057424 circa 1912-1914 23 jewel unmarked movement.

Rick

Congratz Rick, you have 1 of 2,150 of Series "O" in the H/C configuration with the "jeweled barrel" but not with the "jeweled banking pins" [or Ruby Banking Pins] and the 873rd one made with 200 being made in the 4th RUN of H/C movements that yours came from !!

What type of case is it in ?

regards,
bb

Oh well...thanks very much Buster. I was getting dizzy scrolling up and down trying to get a handle on the info so I thought I would just put my info out there. Smart thing to do is to print the information.

I'm with Kevin "keep chatting guy's.."

Regards
Rick