Being one of 185's biggest Elgin fans, I'm always interested in unusual B. W. Raymond watches. I understand from our IHC185 Search (thanks to you, Lindell) that the Elgin B.W. Raymond Model 571 has three variant movement markings: A=no name with 8 adjustments, B= name with 8 adjustments, and C= name with 9 adjustments.

Lindell, since you mentioned the "C" variant might be considered more desirable by some collectors, I will assume (for now) that it is rarer or maybe having more complete markings. Is there any info on how many of these variants were produced? Wayne's site is not always of help even with the advanced search.

I'm having fun tracking this down, but things are coming to a standstill-am I into the "Great Unknown" of pocket watch info?
Thanks for anything you all can add.

I've only come across the 3 categories you mention. I carry a 571 on a regular basis from 1950. I believe it would both fall under the 'B' category you list above, as it's marked 8 adjustments.

The unmarked Type A's were more rare, made from '46-'47, and only 17,000 made in total.
8 position marked Type B's were made from '47-'51, with a total of 91,000 produced.
9 position Type C's from 51-'54, and a total of 63,000 made.

There are more of us 'silent Elgin types' than you might realize.

Regards! Mark

Mark,
Thanks for your help, that really fills in some blanks. There's nothing like searching and getting nowhere.
As for being more active;I wish! I can hardly keep up anymore- But part of that's due to the new members we have. Membership on this site has exploded!

Glad to help.


I've told this story before, but in my families past, they were railroaders on the Norfolk and Western, and kept a running argument between Hamilton owners and Elgin owners as to whose watch was the best. My family members owned Elgins. I'm sure once cars appeared, it moved over to the 'Ford vs Chevy' debate that goes on to this very day.

Regards! Mark

I wonder if someone could clarify a question for me. When you say no name, how were these movements marked?

The type I had no name other than Elgin printed on the dial, but the type II and III usually had 'B.W.Raymond' printed over the Elgin name.

Regard! Mark

Thank you Lindell.

The 571 is one of my favorite carry watches to date, and one of the most accurate and consistant time keepers in my collection.

Regards! Mark

I've been fortunate to pick up a NOS backup setting mechanism, as well as one of the 'rare' LaRose conversion kits to make a 571 into a pendent set movement should push ever come to shove on one of my watches.

Thanks for the tip on the detent screw. That I did not know.

Regards! Mark

Lindell and Mark,
I had no idea about that either; I sure am glad to find this out...I have every intention of owning a 571 someday.

Nice pic's,Lin-as always!

It seems to me that detent screw and removal of the crown/stem assembly was something I had only come across from watches much older-say 40 plus years older. Is that true? Very strange choice in any case...

This is a very interesting topic.
As usual Lin is here, with his wonderful pictures and easy to understand explanations.
That mention of the detent-stem and the little screw. Great stuff.

I am also a fan of the 571- we are more or less contemporaries. Elgin was a favored watch of the old Chicago, Milwaukee, St Paul and Pacific Railway (the Milwaukee Road). I have been told they recommeded Montgomery dials. It has been suggested that the more streamlined Art Deco case design was influenced by the design of this railroad's Hiawatha streamliners. There is a restored Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 steam locomotive (#261)and passenger cars that make up a full train that runs excursions. (in the fall, up and down the Mississippi River valley on old Milwaukee Road rails) I ride it frequently and carry an Elgin 571. After showing it to fellow train riders and some of the crew I have been able to sell a few of these watches after discussing its history and background. So in a way some of these Elgins are (unofficially) back in railroad service!

So this one I thought was a Swiss Elgin is a "571C" with an ugly bow and missing gooseneck regulator spring.

Yep. Looks like the bow is stretched out a bit, and the regulator spring is missing.

In looking at the production numbers, and this is ONLY my personal opinion, it appears that if Elgin had continued to produce the 571 for the same time length that Hamilton produced the 992B, they would have been neck and neck in production numbers, if not higher. Considering the 571 was technically a 'post war baby', that's a lot of watches produced and sold in a pretty short period of time, and they sold for the same price at the time!

From 1946 - 1954 they made a total of 171,000 571's. 8 years.
The 992B was made from 1941 - 1969, and around 525,000+- units. 28 years, including one world war with watch use and production!

It's the old 'what if....?'

Regards! Mark

I had one of the unmarked 571's when I first started buying RR watches. Sold it for $175 and wish now I still had it.

Can't argue with you there, Lindell, but one small point....and yet again a 'what if'.....what if WW2 hadn't started a year after the introduction of the 992B? Would Hamilton have produced that many 992B's by 1946 if they hadn't been supplying all the 992B', 3992B's and 4992B's required to keep all transporation, armies and airforces going in a world wide conflict, including their allies?

All a moot point, to be sure, and I agree, the 992B is heads and shoulders above the 571 in fit, finish, and quality, but they also had a pretty good hand dealt to them for the time period their new watch design came out of the gate. (Of course, not saying WW2 was a good 'anything' for anyone, but you get my point.)

The 571 was a post war baby, and really had no chance to ever come close to those numbers shown by Hamilton, but what if they had come out in 1940 instead? Even considering the time they did come out, they still sold an enormous number of watches in the short time they were making them.

Thing was, they didn't, and that's where it will ever remain.

Still, it's fun to wonder about what 'could have been'.

HIGH regards! Mark

Mark-Very good game of "What If" you play, my friend. A lot to speculate on...

Keeps things interesting. If you dwell too much on what actually happened, you could get depressed.

All I can say is I DO carry my type 571B with me almost everyday, and it's one of the most accurate and dependable watches in my collection. If you don't have one, you should consider looking for one. They're worth the effort and fun to carry to boot. They work!

HIGH regards! Mark

Talk all you want you guys.

My Elgin PANSY is still the BEST!!!!!!! hehehehe

Most of the watches I own are ELGIN'S and I love every one of them.

Especially the ones I picked up here on the IHC185 board.

I can't seem to decide which one I like the best though. I have tried and tried, but I love them all.

ELGIN ROCKS DUDE!!!!!

About Hamilton, as good as their watches were, they also diversified into precision (mechanical dial indicator) Gaging systems and other timing and control systems which I believe were the main reason they survived at all after WWII.

All during the war, Elgin continued to produce the "old" (pic's Grade 478) BWR's mainly due (I am sure) to the fact they had to use existing tooling to get as many movements out as possible. We had Railroads to run, Ships to sail and Battles to win. All these things were interlocked into one chaotic system where the "the best timing allows the least mistakes". That said, this 1943 vintage BWR was simply not a press jewel watch, but it is among the best timekeepers I have. It saw service no doubt about that, and probably up through the 50's and 60's too, giving it three "wars" to serve through.

Excellent point David! Hamilton's success with the U.S. Gov't kept them going strong. The published history of Hamilton I think the title is "Time for America" said that yheir latest annual reports circa 1969-70 disdn't bother mentioning the watch operation. They were prosperous and thus a takeover target, which happened around 1970 when the watch business was sold to the Swiss. Great pix too, David,of the case referred to earlier as the style influenced by the CMStP&P Hiawatha trains. (I'm also a big Art Deco fan).

I have a question about the 571's. Do they run at 18000 beats? I have one that I picked up real cheap but it needed some repair, anyway I have it running at 18056 & yet it is losing time.

Tom

Yes 18000BPH is standard for American pocket watches since 1890s. The Elgin 571 conforms to this standard. Since the hairspring is non-magnetic the 571 is a diesel era railroad watch. You would be amazed at the magnetic field around the traction motors.

Since the price of the 571 appears to taken a dip I decided to see if I could pick up all three variants and I finished up the type-A with J3752XX from the J372001 (run of 6000) that is sandwiched between J374063 (marked BWR) and J375563 (marked BWR) and mine is unmarked and has the earlier wheels and the star with dp logo below it. This one looks like it had a good life about the same as my type-C 571, my type-B 571 is back in working order after some repairs. Nice watches for the collection.

I will post some pictures of all three together, type B is being worked on at the moment it is in a stainless steel case and the other two are in the typical streamline cases, both in very good condition. Sometimes new collectors are not sure about these watches and I tend to collect value watches, ones that don't cost body parts to buy so if any new collectors come along I think it is helpful for them to know what is correct and what to look for.

I only have early BW Raymonds, so never having looked at a 571 in hand, I have 2 questions.It looks like they have gold center wheels, are they gold, or just polished brass? Also, it looks like a cutout notch in the case center, is that to get a screwdriver to the regulator screw?Looks like maybe they should have reversed the whole reg., to face the screw the other way.Nice watches, I want one!Thanks , Ted.