Here is a question for all you faux spotters:

I recently acquired a beautiful Hamilton 924 pocket watch in excellent condition. After some reflection I now suspect the dial is a reproduction. I have never seen a reproduction dial (other than advertisements for them) so I’m really not sure how good they are. Here is what bothers me about the dial.

The second hand dial is not double sunk. There is a slight depression in the porcelain, with the numbers in the recession, but it is all one piece. Not at all like the typical sub dial attached to the back of the main dial. The porcelain looks thicker than a typical dial from this era (1917). The center hole has a relatively large radius around it. It doesn’t look like the typical machined through hole with a well defined chamfer.

Can anyone tell me a definitive way to tell a repo from an authentic dial? I haven’t removed the dial yet, is there a way to tell by looking at the back of the dial? I can send a picture, but I’m not sure a photo will show enough detail.

I look forward to your comments.

Hi Jon,

The only way to tell without removing the dial is, practice, practice,practice. You will start to recongize them with experience. After looking at hundreds of dials you will be able to spot a repo dial without any problem.

So the answer to your question is study and experience.

Some things to help you out would be the most obvious, the finish. Repo dial are unually painted. They are getting better results with expoxy finishes etc. but paint is paint. Porcelain enamel is a baked on and it has a glass finish. This would be hard to see on a internet picture, so you should ask the seller.
Another way to spot a repo is if the dial is double sunk the area on the two surfaces is not a sharpe line, but rather a smooth transistion.

This one is harder to tell because they used a resin finish to make it look shiny but the script also is bad.

Welcome to Chapter 185. We are a friendly group and will help you if we can. There is no such thing as silly question.

Jon,

Based on your description of the seconds bit, I would suspect that the dial you have is most likely a reproduction. This could be easily verified if you could post a scan or picture of the dial.

Rhett

Jim,

It looks a lot like mine, but mine has a cleaner color. Even without the discoloration around the edges, the other features are enough to make me pretty sure it’s a repo. I’ll probably see the gentleman I bought the watch from next weekend. I’ll ask for a refund or an exchange. I don’t think he knew it was a repo. I’ll let you know how I make out.

Thanks,
Jon

jon,
can you remove the dial? (sorry, i do not know your level of expertise)

many of these later reproductions have a metal back and have 'swiss' stamped on the plate...

as Jim says, it does take practice..... and is better done in person, not by images......

Jim,
Perfect explanation, thank you.
Now I'm SURE that some of the Fancy Dials that I have been looking at are fakes. I had noticed exactly what you mentioned, that there is not a clean distinction between the seconds and minute dials. Not crisp, just kinda wavy from one to the other. It didn't look right. Too many of them look too pristine lately so I started to look a lot closer.
Almost makes you want one with a crack in it huh? Thanks again for a great answer to Jon's question, helped me a lot.

Jon, thank you for the question, seems to be a big issue these days.

As for me, I'll take mine with one small crack please! lolol

Jon, if you just stick with what Jim Haney said in this one line
"Another way to spot a repo is if the dial is double sunk the area on the two surfaces is not a sharpe line (or cut), but rather a smooth transition."
This will work 99% of the time, and the rest will come with experience.
Welcome aboard

The closer you look at the ORIGINAL PORCELAIN DIAL on the left and the REPRODUCTION PAINTED DIAL on the right the more apparent the differences will be. The dials like you see on the right are offered by S. LaRose Inc. http://www.slarose.com/ or 1-888-537-4513 at very reasonable prices. They are a fine value and great for a "daily carry" watch in order to avoid damage to an original dial.


In this image, the genuine article shown on left is clearly superior...

Lindell,
I came back in here for JUST THIS REASON! I started checking my watches and YEP there it was, no sharp distinction on watches I know are original. lolol I got to thinking, the only ones I have that are like that, are the Fancy Face watches, and then realized it probably was different, and needed to ask you if there could be a difference, but then I looked at the side and DID see that small amount of metal on the edge and knew that it must be porcelain. Had to ask, and HERE IT IS, LISTED FOR ME IN PERFECT FORM!!!! You are great! Thank you, this is a wonderful explanation, and perfect pictures.

THANK YOU

Sheila, Many of the fancy dials that you will see were aftermarket dials that were supplied to jewelers to be placed on watches at the buyer's request. Some were American made and some were Swiss. So--just because a fancy dial is Swiss, does not mean that it is always a repro dial. It may have been original to the watch when it was sold.
Tom

Please let me add, very nice job Lindell.
Brian C.

Lindell,

How true the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words". I could write and describe all day and couldn't get the point across as well as your pictures.

Thank you so much for taking the time to take off the dials and photographing them. Now we will have this information for future use at the touch of a finger. You do so much to keep this board heads and shoulders above anything else.

Just to add my two cents worth, here is a melamine Canadian dial that a friend insisted on putting on his 4992B. Probably not appropriate, but note how similar this is to a replacement dial.

Melamine dial front

Lindell, your description could be a chapter in the book of "Watch Truths"

I want thank everyone who has taken the time to reply to my question. Especially Lindell’s detailed set of pictures showing the difference between a nice reproduction versus an original. Lindell even spent some time with me on the phone going over this and other issues with buying watches. I really appreciate the time and learned a lot from his mentoring. This has been great fun, as well as being very helpful.

Charles, thanks for posting the pictures of the melamine dials, Lindell mentioned them too. I think I have seen them, but wasn’t aware of what I was looking at.

Glyn, thanks for diplomatically pointing out I still kan’t spell. My boss always told me I’d have a great future if I could only spell the King’s English. I don’t believe him.

As for the watch that triggered the question, I talked to the gentleman I bought it from and he offered another watch (of my choosing) or a refund. I ended up taking a little of both. I traded for a 992 (with original dial) and some cash back. He was very nice about it.

I got out of this one OK, but there is nothing like doing a little research before you buy! This web site is a great resource, and entertaining at the same time.

Thanks again to everyone,
Jon