This one is serial number 1113172 and crosses to an RR Grade 15J course train 15J HG2L TPI RRG (adjusted - patent safety pinion - gilt)

So, I waited out a dial and ended up with another nice movement. In fact, this movement is in mint condition compared to the other.

Now I don't have the heart to part her out and instead, have her in line for a second Engel build. Problem is, it is an expensive proposition. Decent hunter case $200, decent dial $100...

My question to you is how to read the jewel count on this style watch. The book says 15J, but it looks like 17J to me.

This one is a model 2... the other is a model 5... They sure look like twins to me... not much difference between the two movements.

Front plate

Nice - Pretty - Clean

The center wheel is jeweled... Therefore, would think it is safe to say you have a 17j 18sz IL. Plus, I do not recall ever seeing a 15j or less jeweled model 18sz IL that is stamped "adjusted" on the movement plate

The Engel you picture here and the other discussed in "Illinois RR King #2" are nearly the same the same but with one big difference! This is a VERY UNIQUE 17J model 5 and the other (you moved the dial over to) a model 6. I would consider restoring this one with the dial because it is even more uniquely rare model 5 with 17J with a truly original Dial and Balance wheel.

Interesting topic - found a 15j that is marked adjusted on the balance arm

I have this dial in my dial drawer do you need it.

Absolutely, please email me with particulars.

Jon,

That 15J Adj is quite interesting. All these pre-date the official RR specifications...

I landed my first of two Engel Watch Company Chicago watches in September of 2012.

This link ties back to the first one: Illinois RR King NUMBER TWO EVER!

It has taken me 2 years and 9 months to make a legitimate connection to who they are/were.

I have a nice 1897-1927catalog from J. Engel and company Baltimore, whom judging by the catalog were in the same line of business... but it didn't quite close the loop for me.

My watches date to 1891 and 1894, this envelope is post marked May of 1896.

This is an exciting find for me. It is interesting that they take up three addresses on Dearborn Street. The warehouse/store must have been quite substantial.

This puts them only three blocks off Michigan Avenue in the heart of downtown.

I'm curious as to how you count the 17 Jewels here.

Thanks.

Regards,
Larry

Larry,

The records show it being from a 15J run, but I've had it apart and it has 5 paired jewels through the center wheel making it a 17J watch.

It's hard to see in these dinky photos... but if you Ctrl roll to blow up the photo, you can see the center wheel jewel under the edge of the hair spring and the other under the cannon pinion.

If you blow up the example Jon added below mine, you can see that the center wheel is not jeweled.

The assumption is that it was upjeweled before it left the factory.

Thanks Paul.

I guess what I was asking, and I Googled it, was how to count the jewels if a movement is not marked.

I have an 1886 solid gold HC Waltham Riverside with that "step" balance cock, for lack of a better word, that is not marked, and I hate to admit it, but I just don't know how to count the jewels without taking it apart. I have been told that it was a 15J movement, then this morning I saw where the Riverside was a 17J movement. I have it out of the case with the dial off so think I'll take another stab at it.

Thanks again Paul.

BTY thank you for the hint about blowing the pictures up. I had forgotten about that!

Regards,
Larry

As a rule, jeweled to the 3rd wheel is 15J and jeweled to the center wheel is 17J. It gets a little squirly when we are talking about really early movements that are only jeweled on the top where they are visible and not jeweled in the pillar plate.

For example, I just landed this underspung circa 1869 model 1857 SN: 392067 that looks like it should be 15 jewels, but is actually an 11 jewel watch.

With typical escapements, we assume 7 jewels for the balance and pallet, then count up from there.

Paul, did you find that Engel ever got into legal trouble with Elgin? Engel Nat'l. Watch Co. almost sounds like they were trying to get some business away from Elgin, sounds so much like it.Nice watches! Regards, Ted.

Ted,

Thanks for chiming in. I finally found this connection that tells me they were a legitimate and going concern. I have not had the time to chase it out any further than that. Quite frankly, I wouldn't know where to start. Some early Chicago papers perhaps?