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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Horological Discussions, Questions and Answers Pocket Watch Discussions Aargh. ( 992B Subject Melamine Dials )
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Horological Discussions, Questions and Answers Pocket Watch Discussions Aargh. ( 992B Subject Melamine Dials )Go | New Topic | Find-Or-Search | Notify | Tools | Reply to Post | |
Sorry, but I think that I am finally figuring this out. Again, thanks for your patience.  | |||
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Edward, when you are on a single topic, you might prefer to use the "Reply to Post" link in the lower right corner of the message rather than post a new topic.  | |||
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Edward, Welcome to Chapter 185. Your watch, as you thought, was made in 1950. It appears your movement is housed in a Hamilton model #15 factory case. The #15 case was introduced in 1950 and was used until about 1969-70. The dial on your watch is a “Heavy Gothic”, Single Sunk, #168, Melamine dial. The condition of your dial is typical of the Melamine dial. Very few remain in good condition. Hamilton started using Melamine as a replacement for “enamel” in 1946. The 992B was formally introduced in the #11 case in November 1940 and continued until Hamilton stopped producing railroad watches about 1970. Below is an (excerpt) from a Hamilton (1950-51) Catalog with the # 15 case and 3 different dials.  | |||
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With respect to my post above, it has come to my attention, that the "actual" start date for using "Melamine" on the RR dials is believed to be in the 1949-50 time frame. If anyone has knowledge of a "boxed" 992B in the 1946-48 time frame with a known original Melamine dial, please post. Robert | |||
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I will look thru archives tonite for a label...
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It will be appreciated. Robert | |||
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here is the earliest serial number label image that can without a doubt be described as a melamine dial #168... it is the top box... i have some earlier serialed labels, but the dials can be argumented... MHG?? I have bought a few watches from the 46-47 era that have melamine dials.... #151, #121.. they were on watches that did not seem to be swapped out... model 14 cases, model 3 tu tone cases... thanks to jim haney for the initial image....  | ||||
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Terry, Thanks. The C198526/K305673 was discussed a few days ago in another topic. Jim posted an image of the #11 case with a Masonic Lodge emblem engraved on back with a "1951" date. The movement dates to 1947 and case to abt. 1950 according to some #11 numbers I have. (This watch have box and label and can not disputed.) The information below (from Don) lead me to believe that Melamine dials were used on RR watches as early as 1946-47. What say you! Robert
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Well, the internal memo also leads creadance to the earlier date... I have been pretty well satisfied with the earlier dating of this dial... despite the opinion of some other respected authorities...  I hope at some point to speak at length ... mainly to attempt them to come on these boards and see the evidence from various sources.... and of course welcome their contributions to the discussion....... . | ||||
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Robert, I have seen a picture of a box and watch, SN C192820, and documented the information they provided. Can't remember where I saw it, could have been here, or elsewhere. This combination featured a 121 dial according to the picture (pretty easy to distinguish the melamine 121 from the porcelain 536), and was marked MHG on the box. This combo as you know dates to approximately 1947. By SN it is just a tad earlier than Terry's and along with Terry's certainly illustrates that the melamine was beginning to be used in that time period. Edit: I've also documented C214723 whose box shows MHG for the dial. HTH, Tref | ||||
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not boxed... so argue...  | ||||
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boxed... and still argue... looks like the victim of a dial swap to me..  | ||||
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Tref, I strongly believe the Melamine dial made its first appearance in late 1946 or early 1947, but it will be better to find more convincing evidence so there will be a consensus. The "MHG" Melamine Heavy Gothic label Terry posted above dates to 1947. Robert | |||
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Terry, What is that dial of your 17:13 post. I have a loose one..just like it... | ||||
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john, that is "variant" 151 dial... most seen are NOT marked RWS, only Hamilton... this is not mine, but a captured image... condition on yours? have a use for it? | ||||
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Terry, I haven't looked at it for awhile and after finding it, mine is only marked Hamilton..If interested condition is "mint" compared to the pictured one.. but really it has no cracks, one very small scratch at the 55 minute mark, and of course that "dull" white color..No use for it, do you?? | ||||
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not bad to have around.... | ||||
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If you two don't make a deal, and you are not attached to it John I might be interested in it. Thanks, Tref | ||||
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I know the 1946 letter out of research and devolvement on the Melamine dial is what everyone is basing their "THINKING" on. I KNOW they ran some dials in the fall of 46 and spring of 47. My thinking is that these dials did not reach full (I mean placed on every 992B) production until 49 or 50. Unless we can PROVE this, I am making a viable point and I hate to make the statement that MELAMINE dials were used on all of the 992B production watch from 46 on. I think they were slow to catch on and were not fully supported by the Hamilton management, however when they ran out of porcelain dials then melamine was the name of the game. I want to see some factory ledgers to compare with actual box end labels to see if the actual time line is correct. What shows up as a 47,48,49 or 50 production date may have been off by a few years. They were adjusting to coming out of the war and getting their house in order. Show me some boxed examples of a Melamine dial. This will help us clear up this question | ||||
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jim I agree that they ran these in this time frame... and i also doubt Hamilton had 'full coverage' until a much later time.... It is very uncommon to find a boxed watch from this time frame.... i have an image of C160180 and it has an 080 dial... which is not melamine next one is the image i posted above with the obiously HG dial that is not melamine... the next few examples i have images of have the same MHG marking.... your example i posted above seems to have the earliest serial number for the dial number marking that we relate to the melamines... alas, the ledgers do not seem to exist for this time frame.... the watches will have to tell the story... if we can see them before they are broken up for parts..... . | ||||
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I have been reading this with interest and considering what has been posted from an evidentiary perspective. What I see in the factory documentation and wading through the language can be summed up as follows... Late 1946 is when the decision about converting dial production to (shudder) melamine was made. Drawings were produced and experiments with the new material began. This does not suggest that watches were actually shipped to consumers with melamine dials at that late 1946 time-time. When I read the 1953 article the implication confirms that in September of 1946 the decision was indeed made on converting to melamine and that influenced all new dials introduced since that time. This still does not suggest that watches were shipped with melamine dials at that 1946-47 time-frame. Like Jim, I want to see evidence and that evidence is the label that indicates movement C198526 left Hamilton with a melamine dial. We know that movement is attributed to very late 1947 production. Based upon that it might then be reasonable to conclude they had begun to deliver watches with melamine dials by 1948 when such a movement number would have logically hit the distribution cycle. From that it looks to me like melamine dials were probably phased in beginning with the 1948 time frame. We must understand that once a decision was made the product was very gradually phased into actual distribution. It was a very gradual process in those days and I'd bet there were probably still some styles of porcelain-enamel dials being used in production along with melamine at that time. You guys are doing a great job in piecing together the record. I and many others are grateful.  (Parenthetical note: The catalog page that Robert posted cannot be a 1950-51 catalog because it bears a 1951 Hamilton Watch Company Copyright. That same catalog page was reproduced and published in a watch book erroneously attributed to 1949 which we now know from the 1951 copyright that 1949 date was incorrect. That confirms they were showing melamine dials on 992B movements by the 1951 calendar year.) | |||
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this is from what Don posted... with dating of 1947.... i wonder if the 2000 dials ordered by the sales department in late 46 became hockey pucks... the serial on the 151 dial posted above is c172898, but not boxed ... so anything goes.... One point....... Much of what we discuss and throw back and forth is based on the Listed serial number vs date tables........ What if they are wrong? Or at least if the serial number breaks are 'off'? WWII had to play into this..... | ||||
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With all of this detailed information being passed back and forth, I almost feel silly asking my next question. Is it normal or otherwise ok to carry these watches around every day? Is that what most people do, or do they all just get put away and looked at from time to time? And to bring it all home, will carrying it around do any more damage to the melamine face, or will it not do any more damage to it? Thanks again for all of the info! | ||||
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Edward, The link below in an interesting topic about "carry watches". Robert https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...761/m/7836094242/p/1 | |||
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Edward, What is the saying? TOO MUCH INFORMATION ! We didn't mean to hijack your topic, but good things come out of open discussion. I was surprised to learn that 1946 was the date being offered to new members inquiring about melamine dials. The PLANS were drawn up in 1946 and it can all be summed up by Robert's post from the July 1953 issue of Timely Topics. By 1953 all the dial were Melamine. This was a gradual process that took years to accomplish. From 1947 until 1951 Hamilton was producing about 35,000 992B per year. If they ordered 2000 new Melamine dial in 1946 to begin this process it would have only affected 7% of the 1947 watches. This was a natural progression until they reached 100% in 1953 as the article states. I have visions of Newbies switching their late 40's 992B's back to Melamine dial to be correct! We have to be careful on the information we generate because if someone READS it becomes FACT. | ||||
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Lindell,
According to the information below, the #15 with #168, #121, #151 Melamine dials was being sold prior to the Hamilton (1951) Catalog, i.e. June 5, 1950. As you mentioned above, the #15 could not have been in the 1949 catalog since it was not introduced until a year later in mid-1950. Robert "1950 June 5, 1950 992b Ry Spec. Steel #15 with dials #121, 168 and 151 Brush Back - Bright Polish fancy back and bezel Case construction of type #302 Non-magnetic 18.8 Stainless Steel- An ideal material that assures years of dependable service. Styled for smart appearance as well as rugged usage. Code 871031 Letter 6/2/50 6/2-5/1950 shipped about 315 watches | |||
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Jim, Actually I'm quite tickled that my first little foray into the world o' watches has elicited such a response. It's actually very cool to realize that there are people out there who are not only much more knowledgeable about these things, but also willing to share that knowledge. Plus, the more that I get involved, the more questions that I come up with. Thanks again for all of the input. | ||||
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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Horological Discussions, Questions and Answers Pocket Watch Discussions Aargh. ( 992B Subject Melamine Dials )
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