Tom, I agree with all you have just said and I know you could say more because of all the research you have done regarding the Watch Inspectors that you have documented in other strings here....

I for one respect Webb C. Ball for the various methods he used to improve "Time Keeping" and hence taking the watch industry to a higher level of accuracy....

There are many Ball Watch collectors that would echo my sentiments exactly....

Thank you for adding you comments to this discussion....

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry I do lump Ball in the same category as Vanderbilt, Rockfeller and others, good or bad but in the equal light. As mentioned earlier the cost of a RR watch had a extreme impact on the average RR worker and it was a bit of financial hardship. By 1910 there was a large availability of used watches capable of meeting the requirements of probably all of the RR’s. So a new hire RR worker could purchase a used watch that would meet the requirements. If you own a watch company what is the best way to increase your profits, one way would be to eliminate that pool of used watches some way or somehow. So if you look at the Ball watch company’s market share of the RR watch market that means once you eliminate that pool then any new hire would have less of a pool of watches to choose from and chances are that a new hire would end up buying a watch from Ball Watch Company. I would ask anyone to tell me from a safety or horology point of view why would a Hamilton 940 adj5 pos be less safe than a 992 adj 5 positions, in reality there isn’t. The biggest force in the elimination of 18s watches was Webb C Ball, the other watch companies had no motive to eliminate the 18s and some were caught quite off guard by Mr. Ball’s actions. So one can point to Mr. Ball as an astute business man or view him in the same light as Rockerfeller or Vanderbilt, these people are viewed good and bad but for the most part bad because they profited in ways that would be considered illegal now. I think Mr. Ball’s actions related to his the 18’s watches is a clear indication on that his motives was.
Tom I gave Ball watch company some credit when I mentioned "finishing" but it depends on what your criteria is, in the American sense Ball was not a watch company, in the Swiss sense they were. Ball received mostly complete or complete movements, for the majority of his watches he was not making plates, balance cocks,etc which typical American watch companies did. In the case of Swiss watch makers they took components made by suppliers and assembled them "finishing". The Swiss did timing and other adjustments as part of their process. American watch companies made the majority of the major components for their watches, that is definitely not true for Ball watch company.

To amend my comment a bit, any worker, exisiting or new, that wanted to bring a watch not currently documented in his RR system would be considered a "new watch" in regards to the company he worked for irregardless if the watch was new or used. So even if a current worker wanted to upgrade to a better watch, say a 940 or Elgin 214, if either of these watches was not documented in the RR he worked for (in service) it would be considered a new watch. So this also effectively eliminated the chance that an existing worker could upgrade from a pool of good watches since Ball's exhaustive efforts lead many RR companies to eliminate 18s watches as new watches to their system.

Just to bump this one more time, I thought Claude and others might enjoy this little film I stumbled across looking for something else. It's N&W related, and shows time service at it's finest hour. Freight 86 was the time freight my Dad took care of on his assigned freight hump in Portsmouth back in 1948, which is seen briefly in the film.
Anyway, here it is for your viewing enjoyment:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...o_ya-kAE&feature=fvw

Regards! Mark

Here is one of the Gainesville-Midland that later became part of the SAL and later CSX. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMeGSQAr-qg Gainesville-Midland ran a few different steamers but 3 of them 2-10-0 units are on display, one in the town square area of Gainesville, one at the old Winder Ga depot and one at the Duluth train museum. This video was done in 1956 and you can see the steamer and a diesel together at one point. This rail line runs about 2-4 miles from where I live, for the most part it G-M line ran from Gainesville to Athens.

Thanks, Guys, for the video's, they are both very interesting and informative....

Mark, I think the one you showed was a real nice & slick piece of advertising for the N&W Line....

Claude, I can just see ol' No 208 rolling into a town here in California, belching all that black smoke and watching all the environmentalists scramble to see who could be the first to file a lawsuit to stop it from running.... ....personally, I love it....

Regards,

Jerry

This is the 208 in it's resting spot next to the Winder depot, http://e_lauterbach.tripod.com/winder1.html

Here is one of it's brothers on display downtown Gainesville, http://e_lauterbach.tripod.com/gm209.html

This has been a very interesting and informative post. Seeing these videos had me watching you tube videos for hours. I never knew the sounds and whistles were so different on the different trains. Anyway, dont want to hijack the thread but I do have a question.
Are there any of these old restored trains running?. I know the environmental impacts have driven them into retirement years ago but it would sure be nice to see one in action. I remember riding the old narrow gauge locomotive in Colorado as a kid but never paid much attention to it as it just seemed so commonplace at the time.

More than a few are available, http://www.swiftline50.com/cat...train-trips-america/

http://www.railserve.com/Touri...rth_America/Central/

There is one that is a dinner run that runs up around Asheville NC not far from here. Don't worry about hijacking the post, I always thought this is about railroad watches to me old steamers are just part of the history.

Wow thanks for the info Claude. The wife and I are thinking of the Conneticut fall leaves trip, looks like a grand time.

Ray

Ray, here are three Train Tours that you can look at....
I have taken the Grand Canyon trip and it is well worth the money....

Colorodo's National Parks & Trains

California's Historic Trains

Grand Canyon Train Tour

Regards,

Jerry

Mark: A letter I sent today to the online "News Watchman" in Waverly :::
Dear Editor: I acquired a #2 Seth Thomas Regulator clock a few years back,with quite remarkable bottom door glass advertising "The Joyce Co. Jewelers,Opposite N&W YMCA,Portsmouth".It has a signed trapezoid movement. It has a Joyce Jewelers repaired and cleaned sticker July 1938 and a sticker saying it was taken out of the Waverly depot on June 30,1956. I would love to have a picture of it when it was hanging in the Waverly Depot and if any one of your readers can help ,I would be most appreciative. Thank you very much,and all the best to Waverly,sincerely,Tom Brunton,Aylmer Ontario,Canada - Should you like pictures of the clock please inform me and I will send a few to you ,Tom

Yep, found your email in my inbox this morning and replied! Thanks for keeping me in the loop. Please let us know if anyone reponds!

Regards! Mark

Hi Mark ; The Waverly News Watchman published a story about the clock in the current issue but I can't seem to access it online without subscribing. They apparently publish it online as well as a paper version so I emailed the reporter who got the story and pictures from me asking and will let you know what I hear. I ended up talking to Jim Henry of Portsmouth who said he was pretty sure he had a picture of the inside of the depot with a "railroad dick" (meaning a Railroad Detective) sitting under the clock!! I hope he finds it and sends it to me,that would be wonderful !! regards,Tom



http://www.newswatchman.com/ar...97a5689478992788.txt

Yeah, I couldn't open it either, and don't plan on subscribing to the paper just for the article. I hope you can get a copy and possibly post it here.

Thanks!

Regard! Mark

Here is one definition of a standard railroad watch.

Man, they leave NO wiggle room in THEIR definition, DO they?

Regards! Mark

Nice one, John!Thanks for sharing it.I for one think these inspection cards are pretty cool.I wonder what year that one came from? Best wishes, Ted.

Anyone have any other such inspection cards? It'd be interesting to see some from Canada.It would really be something to have an inspection card for a watch you own!I doubt that would ever happen, though.

I wonder what the date is on the inspection card, late 40's early 50's

If anyone is interested, on pg. 21 of Roy Ehrhardt's 1979 Indicator, there's a full page of RR watch inspection and standards of the Louisville & Nashville RR, from 1978.Their standards were still really strict even that late.At that time, they would still allow some "old" grades- 21-3J Bunn Specials, 21J Father Time,23J Sangamo Sp'l, 21J Crescent St., and 23J Premier Maximus, 23 J Veritas. These and the other more modern ones listed were atill being grandfathered in.Makes a good read! Regards, Ted.

After Claude ask the question as to the date of the Form #27 that John posted, I sent an email to the Chicago and North Western Society Archive....Mr. Joe Piersen, the President of the Archive replied almost immediately and here is his email back to me....

I sent him a copy of the form as an attachment and ask if he could provide any information regarding the dates, in years, this form may have been in use....the following is his reply....

________________________________________________________________________________
Jerry,

Thanks for contacting us at the C&NWHS.

This may not be possible, as we do not have lists of all printing dates, though we do have some printing scrapbooks. From the looks of it, it might be in the 1920's - 1940's.

I will print out your attachment, and I will ask Frank next week at the Archives, as he has been cataloging such things.

Joe
________________________________________________________________________________

I will post any information that he may supply next week if he sends me anything....

Regards,

Jerry

The C&NW card has no marking on the back. I am unable to date it. Here is another card from the OR&NCo.

Here is the back of the OR&NCo card.

I can't tell if the dates are 1910 or 1916 but I think the Rockford 545 was 21j marked "adjusted" so I figure at the minimum it was adjusted to 3 positions since many Elgins that were RR watches like the 150/181 were adjusted only to 3 postions. The 348/349 were original adj3p but were later marked adj5p as the RR requirements started shifting. Maybe someone that collects Rockfords can chime in but I would expect the 545 might have been later marked adj5p also.

The dates on the card are from 1910 - I had a close look. The card came in a Ball wallet marked for "F Fredericksen, Starbuck, Washington, Local Watch Inspector ORR&NCo, Authorised Agent, Ball Watches - The Railroad Standard".

I am looking at a 16s lever set watch marked "Rockford Watch Co, 675791, 21 Jewels, 545, Double Roller, Adjusted 5 Positions".

hi Mark ; the local "Pike County News Watchman" paper did a real nice FRONT PAGE article on the Waverly Depot Seth Thomas #2 regulator clock ,mentioning that I was interested in obtaining a picture of the clock hanging in the depot,so we'll see what happens.This is a photo of 1/2 the article,the rest was inside the paper.

Sorry to drag this old post to the top of the pile again, but Tom, did you ever hear anything else from anyone in Waverly about your clock?

Regards! Mark

This thread is a great read!

Yep, we kind of rambled in this one, didn't we?

Regards! Mark

Booting this 'golden oldie' back to the top of the pile, I have to confess that in the past few years, I've been carrying more Hamiltons than Elgins in my watch pocket.

I'm sure my N&W ancestors are spinning in their graves!

Regards! Mark

Glad you brought this back up Mark,
I found Pike County, OH Seth Thomas #2 post from Tom Brunton interesting. Wonder if he ever did get an answer. Would be nice to know where that clock is.
As you know he has now passed on, and I see a post there from Paul Trombley too. Also passed on.
Not many of us oldtimers left!

I honestly hadn't thought about that, Dave! Wow, we ARE thinning out, aren't we!?

I also smiled when I re-read Claude saying he only had a 'few Elgin's' in his collection back then. Man, he's sure worked hard to fix THAT 'problem' in the past few years, hasn't he?!

Regards! Mark

Hey Mark, back earlier in this great thread, I had said that I wanted to get a Father Time to go along with my 349 and BWR's.After years of chasing one I could afford, I finally got a nice F.T. 18s hunter, and then an open face 16s came my way for next to nothing.I was going to give up chasing any more Elgins, until I spotted a 21J 18s Gr. 181. These Elgin RR's really grow on you!! Take care, Ted.