I guess as a civilian, I should not comment on the topic of what is a railroad watch and rather than hijack Bill's Trenton post I will start a new one. Here is Santa Fe's railroad published in Santa Fe's employee magazine and I am sure other rail road companies posted this same type of information either in their magazines or other trade magazines. Santa Fe 1921 watch rules I have to admit that I was mistaken from my memory I recalled the rules ended in 1921 but to the contrary the rules took effect in 1921 but I do remember Santa Fe revised it watch regulation toward the end of the 20's. Contrary to popular opinion I don't think you have to be a current or ex-RR worker to at least comment on have insight to railroad watch regulations, that would be akin to saying you could not comment on WWI, WWII etc unless you actually fought in those wars. I guess that is what bothers me most about this hobby since people treat railroad watches as all inclusive and one can make a good case for this after 1950 but prior to this you probably had two cases, 1- the guaranteed watch- watches that were guaranteed by the watch company to meet the specifications of all railroad companies, watches like the South Bend 227, Hamilton 992/950, Waltham Vanguards, and Elgin Father Time, Veritas and Illinois Bunns and Abe Lincolns.
2- The minimum watch- watches like the what is mentioned in the Sante Fe publication, 17j,LS, OF, breguet hairspring, steel escape wheel and 30s/wk and adjusted to 3 positions. Even in the case of Santa Fe they did not allow plastic crystals. You can sometimes find these type of regulations documented in trade or company magazines. Obviously when you see the few that are available the criteria for a RR watch was not "one size fits all" that some people refer too or some sites like the one posted in one of the responses to Bill's Trenton post.
There are many watches that would meet Santa Fe's requirements that most would not consider RR watches. As mentioned there were over 200 class 1 railroads in the 1910 to 1930 and not all had the same standards for the watches they required and that is not even taking into consideration the hundreds of class 2 railroads that existed in the same time period.
Even up to 1949 Chicago, Burlington and Quincy allowed a watch comparable to what Santa Fe has listed in 1921 and later. Chicago, Burlington and Quincy

In the end there is so much missing than known to make any definitive statement about what the requirements were is impossible since the information available is spotty at best and only some exists for a few of the railroad companies. I would call C,B&Q a railroad company and up to 1949 you could have easily used an Elgin grade 466 or another comparable brand watch since there were many watches out there that were 17j,OF, adj3 pos, steel escape wheel, lever set, breguet hairspring that would have met this specification. How many would include an Elgin grade 342 or 466 as a railroad watch but certainly both of these watches could/would have met the specifications by both of the above major railroad companies that ran several hundred if not thousands miles of track.

Another thing that isn't mentioned much are how many watches that were grandfathered by railroads and used in standard service that lived WELL past their 'official' status as recognized railroad watches.

My greatgrand father carried an 21j 18s Elgin to the day he retired from the Norfolk and Western in the late '50's, and was head engine inspector of the Portsmouth, Ohio yards at the time of his retirement. He purchased the Elgin new from the local watch inspector around 1916 or so, to our best guess, and it was an official 'standard' watch at the time of purchase.

18s watches had been removed from standard watch lists for years by the N&W, but they were still out there in the pockets of the men, used daily, inspected monthly, and accepted as standard watches BY the very roads that outlawed them years before.

As you read in the Santa Fe rules, that very comment is made about keeping current watches in service, as long as they meet the standard.

As long as those watches were meeting the time keeping requirements set forth by the road and passing official inspection each month, they were left in service.

There was 'official', and then, there was 'real world use'.

It's also a strong statement on how good Elgin made THEIR turn-of-the-20th-century watches....as my greatgrand father's Elgin stayed in active service his entire railroad career and never required major repair...and he worked around the locomotives his whole working life.

To paraphrase a line from the Pirates of the Carribean film, many times the rules were used more as 'guidelines' by a great many roads rather than an unmovable 'code'.

I do find it interesting that according to the article the Santa Fe extended the rule to include train porters. That's an interesting addition.

Regards! Mark

On the grandfathering aspect you could have on some RR's pendant set watches like the Elgin 161 and others hunter case watches that are mentioned as they will no longer be allowed, which makes you think as long as a hunter watch works properly (30sec/wk)it would have been grandfathered in service. I certainly don't paint myself as a RR watch regulation expert, I will leave that up to others but when you look at the two official items posted for each large RR company you see that there are probably a lot more watches that would have easily fit either criteria 17j,OF,LS,DR,steel escape wheel, adj3 pos, Brequet hairspring that a new employee could have submitted for approval no matter if the watch was new or used that many do not consider RR watches.
My father in law when he retired was a yard master at the N&W railyard in Sandusky Ohio, the watch he had was a 21j Burlingtion, triple signed with Montgomery dial (beautiful watch) that was passed to him by his father in law, which was a very common habit, father passing a pocket watch to son or son-in-law simpley because in comparison to the wages they made on the RR at the time a pocket watch was an extremely costly investment.
My wife tells me her father worked two jobs, on the RR and other other working at a gas station to make ends meet so in the 50's and 60's working for the RR did not mean you were rolling in dough.
People sometimes never look at the complete picture, 1) RR companies needed workers since they were growing after the turn of the century (1900) 2)Working for the RR was not typically a real high paying job. 3) For most positions you needed a proper watch and that proper watch would cost you in the neighborhood of 5 grand in todays dollars if you purchased a new one. 4) No matter if you purchased a new or used watch the price was a sizable investment that took a large part of your pay for a fairly long time to cover that investment.
For Elgin there are several watch grades like the 342,412,466 that would fit these requirements, sometimes the 342 is considered to be RR approved but typically you don't see that for the grade 466. I am sure Illinois, Waltham, Hampden, Rockford, Hamilton, South Bend and others that had watches that would meet both the Santa Fe or C,B&Q specifications that are not typically considered RR approved watches.
The more of these official RR watch regulations that you see the more you realized things are not so black/white or cut and dried as to which watch grades were RR approved and which ones were not.

The "Winding stem at 12 O'clock" helps explain the factory made dials for Watham and Elgin HC movements that have the seconds chapter at 3 O'clock as then they adhere to this regulation when they were Open Face cased.

David I think you are probably one of the resident Waltham experts. On the C,B&Q regulations they mention Vanguard 23j, from the serial number I think you could exclude any 18s so that means C,B&Q appear to give a 10 year buffer from 1949, so watch grades produced new around 1938-1939 could be used. For Waltham was there more than one movement grade that would have been made in that time period range that fits the description? For Illinois I think the one mentioned would be the 161 A&B and the 163 A&B. For Hamilton it is straight forward, For Elgin I think the 478,571,540,590 are the only BWR's either 21j or 23j that would fit into the Elgin requirement. Ball is straight forward also in what can be used.

Since there were not many short line railroads when the watch standards came out most if not all roads had a watch program to monitor the use, repair and minimum standard allowed. I would bet there was no Grandfather program for most big roads. A lever-set watch was mandatory as was adjusted in at least 3 positions and open face for engineers in the early days.

As a kid I saw many older watches tossed in a draw traded for new Hamilton's and a few other brands at the New Havens Timekeepers office. Including at least one Westclock $5 Hardware store special...

Dave, You brought up a good point with those HC/OF conversion dials.I've seen pictures of some factory Waltham heavy Arabic "Engineer" dials that had a circle at the nine o'clock position that read "Waltham Vanguard" and the # of jewels.Really nice looking porcelain dials.The circle opposite the 3 o'clock seconds bit made them look different but nice.Regards, Ted.

Bill, Santa Fe had over 13,000 miles of track in 1945. C,B&Q had over 12,000 miles of track, in 1929 Southern Pacific had approx 13,900 miles of track, N&W only had 7,000 miles of track, Southern railroad had about the same as N&W so the two railroads Santa Fe or C,B&Q were very large railroad systems. Most if not all regulations that I have seen for railroads allowed for "grandfathering".

I have another question about Claude's great post.In the case of a watch that wouldn't meet the "new" standards, and had to be grandfathered in to stay in service (such as his father-in-law's Burlington), who had the final say about whether of not it got approved?Was it left up to the inspectors, or did the higher-ups in the railroad company make those decisions?Another thing, were the inspection cards a national standard form, or did each road come up with their own? Thanks!, Ted.

Theodore, Mark did a good job of explaining what happens to older watches. As long as a watch is in service and continues to meet the 30 +/- difference per week during normal inspections it can stay in service. The owner still has to keep the watch in a good state of repair and have it inspected at the normal intervals.

I usually email a friend in Alabama because he collects Elgin OF RR watches where I also mostly collect Elgin OF RR but sometimes being easily diverted by a nice watch I will pick up Elgin Hunters, Hampdens and even the later Elgin watches made in South Carolina that used Swiss component movements, along with watches like the Trenton 19j. He sent me an email that has some information that gives some insight to some of the topics in this post.

Regarding the time cards, I have examples from the L & N and C of G (regular & loaner). I have seen examples from SAL, ACL, SCL, GM&O, Santa Fe, N & W, SRR, and a few others. They appear to have the same basic format, but each RR put their own criteria on their card. Some have things that others do not.
L&N form 1345 (12-66) asks for size of watch, which would open speculation if there were not some 18S still in service. However, this may be for filling in 16 or WW. It also asks if Single or Double Roller, and Pendant at 12 or 3.
CofG Form CT 90-B Standard (no printing date - but certainly older than 1966) reads virtually the same as the L&N, but wants to know if cased in OF or Htg.
Cof G Standard Loaner Certificate CT 90-E Standard from the 1960s (date is filled in as 196_.) only asks for SN & Grade. No mention of Jewels, Make, or any of the other stuff on the standard card. This is probably so the LWI can get by with loaning out 15J & 17J old stuff he has likely taken in trade for newer, higher 21J+ stuff. Both L&N and CofG refer to employe, using that eccentric spelling of the day, which was carried through to the 60s.
Regarding the class 2 & lower RRs, in 2003 I was brought a 18S 17J Bunn to see about getting overhauled for a warrant officer that was in the Alabama National Guard with me. He was from the Mobile area, and his father or uncle worked for the Alabama Docks RR, which interchanges with the CSX at the Sibert Yard. Story was the guy was required to "have some kind of official watch due to the fact that his RR interchanged with a class 1 (would have been L&N at the time) RR, and he had to have one like those L&N guys had". He used this watch until he retired in about 1974. It had lain in a drawer since his death, and in 2003, I got it overhauled for either the son or nephew. Point being in support of official approved list as opposed to actual use on line of road. When I worked for CSX 2000-2004 as a conductor, naturally I carried a different watch every week as there were no official standards other than you cannot use an object in which timekeeping is a 2nd function (like a cell phone) and not its primary function. 99 cents breakfast cereal watches were not allowed, but most any watch would pass inspection (nobody ever "inspected" my watch other than the guys who still carried pocket watches). When I made my last run in 2004 on the M&M sub there were 2 AWW Vanguards, 6 Elgin 571s, 3 Hamilton 992Bs, and 1 IWCo BS being carried by employes every day. Which by the way, gives Elgin more than all others combined. Plus whatever I had on a given day. 8 or 10 others had Ball & Bulova WWs. Maybe a Seiko or 2.

Thanks again, Claude.I think RR watches and watch rules are one of the most facinating parts of watch collecting., Ted.

I wonder if all this was the same up in Canada, maybe Larry Buchan could add to this.I imagine up there it would have been about the same.When you think about it, buying a good RR watch must have been a huge investment, and maybe even a hardship for a lot of guys back then, especially when railroaders like you said weren't making big money for a job with such high responsability, no wonder the RR companies didn't flat out reject the "grandfathered" watches.They probably would have ignited a war with their employees if they had.

An excellent point, Theorore. I'd say you hit the nail on the head with your last line, especially among the men with senority.

With that in mind, sometimes I look in my watch box at my few railroad watches and feel just a bit guilty. As you say, ONE watch represented a HUGE household investment, a REQUIRED investment no less, of a mans income in order to work for a railroad. It represented a financial hardship to a man, but it was what was required if he wanted to work for the road, and therefore HAD to be obtained. He purchased it, be it outright, or by payroll deduction. Most opted for the last.

These were passed down from father to son in many cases, as they were an extremely important and expensive possession to a railroader....and here I have several in a box that I occasionally wind, wear, and just admire.

I wonder if they would have ever believed their watches that carried such an important place in their daily lives would have ever ended up as just being an item of curiousity and a collectable?

I personally believe that 'connection' between man and his railroad watch changed during WW2. Men and equipment changed in their attitudes toward work, and how they used to view their jobs. The man who was used to be assigned his own locomotive by specific number or engine class before the war just climbed on board whatever locomotive he was assigned for any particular run during and after the war. It was the same with the rest of his tools.

Just a theory, but based on personal observation of men I knew who worked the road through those days of transition, before AND after WW2.

I was blessed to know men who started their railroad careers at the very beginning of the 20th century, and spoke to them as often as I could as a kid. I also knew engineers and brakemen who were on call during the 60's and 70's. There was a complete change of attitude in just one generation.

Those who started their career before the war spoke of 'the RAILROAD' with pride and 'ownership' of a career. After the war, it was just 'the job', something they did to put food on the table, and then their interests lay elsewhere off railroad property. The old heads, though long retired, still considered themselves railroaders that were still 'on call' if they were ever needed. I've posted on more than one occasion that my great-grandfather was allowed to work well past required retirement age until the N&W finally told him he had to go. To the day he died, he said they 'ran him off', and that 'he'd go back to work if they'd just call him'. He was in a nursing home at the time.

I know several railroaders of recent years who were required to carry a standard watch considered them just a piece of required equipment, and have said so in many of their posts....but the generations before, men that I have known and talked to who are now long gone, carried their one watch with almost reverance. It represented THE railroad to them, and they were proud of their watch. It wasn't just 'their watch', it represented their life on the railroad, and they kept them mechanically sound and inspected on a regular basis, just like they did when they were employeed by the road. It was a habit and point of pride.

As I have posted before, as kid I heard as many spirited debates on who made the best railroad watch (Elgin or Hamilton) in my hometown barbershop between old greyhaired retired railroaders as folks who have debated the pros and cons between Chevy and Ford car owners.

Sorry to ramble on like that. Needless to say, this subject always stirs up memories of my old friends from so long ago that have been long dead, but not forgotten.

Regards! Mark

I went back to Bill's Trenton post to see what Buster said he was making on the RR in 1966, seems it was $26.80 but he deleted his later posts so I am just going by memory. If I look at the site that I posted a link to in 1966 the ave hourly wage was $3.14 or $25.12 which is within what Buster posted. So that means that the RR'er was making a bit more than average in 1966. It seems like a 992B was about $80 in the 1966 time frame so that means it took a bit under 26 hours of work to pay for a good RR watch. The same type of Hamilton (992 not 992B)in 1916 was $32.50 in the Hamilton RedBook. For that same type of watch the RR'er would have had to put in 135.4 hours to cover the cost (over 3 weeks pay). I don't think the calculator is perfect but if you look at who is creating it they don't appear to be knuckle-heads and try to be fair and unbiased with historical data.
So just as Mark described there was a lot of passion by some older RR'ers because of the sweat it costed them for a good watch. By the time the 50's rolled around the cost was in terms of "days pay" and not "weeks pay", and yes I remember the arguments of which was better Dodge, Ford, or Chevy and the comments "First on Race day or Find on Road Dead". And you can also understand why RR watches were passed from father to son.

1960 2.54
1961 2.60
1962 2.71
1963 2.83
1964 2.89
1965 3.00
1966 3.14
1967 3.29
1968 3.52
1969 3.72
1970 3.93

1900 0.14
1901 0.14
1902 0.15
1903 0.15
1904 0.15
1905 0.16
1906 0.16
1907 0.17
1908 0.16
1909 0.17
1910 0.18
1911 0.18
1912 0.19
1913 0.20
1914 0.20
1915 0.20
1916 0.24

Agreed. As a kid, I had been raised in the old 'be seen, not heard' tradition, but by doing so was able to observe a lot in quietly listening to those old men while I read my comic books in the barbershop.

The one thing I never really understood WAS that Elgin/Hamilton debate that usually popped up every other trip to the shop. They were both required to do the same job, and they were both in essentially the same price range, comparible models being considered.

I always just took it to be pride in ownership, 'mine is better than yours' bravado, as the 'race' was exactly the same, and both products were expected to perform exactly the same duty in service. It always made me smile.

To drag this back to the topic 'kicking and screaming' (grins), most watch inspectors knew they were in a parasitic relationship with the railroad they were contracted to serve. In a larger city that had several roads and employees, it was a cash and carry business, and that was the end of it. A professional relationship all the way.

In the smaller towns and divisions, though, it was more personable when you had an inspector who had a LONG established relationship with both road and employees they served. With that relationship in place, it seemed that the inspector was given a bit more leeway in determining who got to carry what, as THEY were the ones who certified the watch being carried in the man's pocket while on duty as meeting the requirements of that particular division.

That's probably why a lot of mens watches were grandfathered LONG after the watch model fell off the road's 'accepted list', and why new men were required to purchase a new watch when they hired on, that is, unless the inspector knew the man, or his Dad/GrandDad/relative, and a known and past inspected family watch was presented for certification. Otherwise they wouldn't accept an older watch for service.

This kind of connection between employee and inspector lasted for years, as the division jobs were generational. Families lived, worked, and died in the same general area, so most railroad men and women never left the location they originally hired at. I know that was true in my hometown. You either worked for the railroad, the steel mill, or any of the multitude of industries that supported one of those two entities. For example there were two firebrick plants located there to support the mill and the relining of the locomotive fireboxes in the shops. My wife's Dad and Grandpa worked there all their lives.

Railroad workers may have been temporarily transfered within the division during their time on the road, but usually ended right back at the same location they started at by retirement.

That all changed by the mid to late 50's, though.

Speaking from a personal perspective, the N&W dieselized the system, and the last steam engine left my hometown of Portsmouth, Ohio by 1960-61. The required workforce that was stationed in the proper places to keep those locomotives operational were no longer needed, and folks and equipment were moved around like game pieces on a checker board. THAT'S when railroading REALLY changed. Instead of promotions from within a shop or division as had always been the SOP, men were transferred in from other divisions to replace retiring workers, time standard watch inspections were abolished, and the personal family connections within a division began to disappear.

Here's an aerial view of the N&W Scioto Division Portsmouth, Ohio terminal/classification yard my family made their living in all those years ago, shot in December 1941, the very month 'our' world started to change.

http://www.sessions-station.co...tsmouth,%20Ohio.html

My great grand father was an engine inspector in that roundhouse area, my grandfather a boiler maker in the same shop, and just above the round house in the dark area were the east end hump yards, and where my Dad worked until he left for work at the newly opened uranium enrichment plant in the 50's. Great uncles and cousins worked in the car shops, located in the middle of the yard.

The smoke at the top of the yard photo was the steel mill.

About the center and to the left of the roundhouse area in the photo, up against the hill and in front of the railroad YMCA was Jarvis Jewelers....our N&W/B&O/C&O watch inspector, located literally on the way from the Y to the locomotive waiting tracks, located just across the street. The dark 'line' you see in that area going left to right is the shadow of a wooden walk bridge that crossed from the YMCA side of the street and crossed the tracks to allow workers to access the shops and ready track without having to physically walk across tracks. I walked that bridge many a times as a teenager. It's no longer there.

The second dark line in the middle of the photo is the huge bridge crane they used for the car shops. They also built coal cars (not gondolas. N&W called them 'coal cars') in this yard, in addtion to everything else they did.

At least that's what happened in MY world and family experience. Others may vary.

This is all gone, by the way. The yards are still there, but in limited use as compared to the heyday of this yard. The coal and freight humps are gone, as is the round house. The steel mill is gone, all property turned into strip malls, and all the brick yards gone as well. An entire way of life... gone.

Anyway, I'm wandering again....

Oh, and $32.50 in 1916 dollars is equal to $642.12 in 2010 dollars, according to the COA calculator I use.

http://www.aier.org/research/w...of-living-calculator

(Man, I'm sure waxing nostalgic today! SO sorry, Claude, but sometimes understanding the culture explains the method behind the 'madness! )

Regards! Mark

Thanks Claude, in alot of ways those guys back then, even though they lived on and with less, were a lot better off than we are today!I still think railroading was an honorable job, even though it was hard and dirty work.I can relate to that, I'm not in railroading, but my job (mechanic/welder) is hard, dirty work, but I still have pride in what I do.Unlike the vast majority today.A railroad watch was and still is a prize posession for anyone!

Hey Mark, I enjoy reading your stories, you don't know how lucky you were to have lived thru that time.The Elgin versus Hamilton Vs. Waltham, Hampden etc. controversy will never stop, it's just among us collectors instead of railroaders today, though.Imagine the trouble that would have started if the RR company told you that that 19J BW Raymond you worked so hard for and were using for the last 20 years, was going to have to be parked because they came up with new standards.You wouldn't be too thrilled about it.When you think about it, that old Raymond would do the same job just as well as the more high-tech 992B.Everything changed back then, but not for the better!Thanks again! Best regards, Ted.

Hey Guys, thanks for this thread. I don't have much to add but I really enjoy the trip down the memory tracks since this provides some context for me in my collecting. I collect only Canadian railway watches - I only have a couple of ww, mostly pw's - but mostly they come to me without any story attached. I have a couple that I do know the background to and they are more valued in my mind.

The stories and memories that are being shared here may all be US-based but I think the general sentiment must have been the same with Canadian railwaymen.

I started my collection with a pw that was passed down to me from my dad and grandfather but it is not RR. The reason that I collect RR is that I also build/operate an HO model railway and have fond memories of the later day of steam locomotives and that is my attachement. So, it is great to come across these threads here on IHC185 and I just wanted to say thanks and keep 'em comin'.
Ralph

Thank you for your kind remarks. I sometimes wonder if my memories help explain or muddy the waters when it comes to threads, but I do believe if you can get a feel of the time, or somehow get under the skin of the men and women who lived during the time these amazing machines were made and used, it gives one more pleasure in the shared ownership of these fantastic watches.

I was lucky, and yet unlucky to see the transition in my town. I vaguely remember watching those huge Y6b compounds and Class A articulated steam locomotives still pulling long coal trains out of those yards, and then seeing nothing but the monotonous line of GP9 and RS11 diesel lashups replace them.

Our house was located only a few blocks from the west end of the yard, and it shook day and night from the vibration of those non-turbo charged diesel engines as they started their trip either down the Peavine toward Cincinnati or up the Valley Run to Columbus, mixed with the occasional soft 'chuffing' of the S class 0-8-0 steam switchers moving cars around, losing traction and spinning their drivers in an explosion of steam and coal smoke.

The only reason I was lucky enough to witness this change was due to the fact the N&W was the last bastion of steam in the U. S. They built their own locomotives, and the held onto them until the very last moment when the ink ran too red for their accountants and stock holders to stand, and they slowly started replacing them with diesel. Steam and diesel were working side by side in the late 50's and early 60's, then poof, the steam engines were gone quite literally overnight. I persoanally saw line after line of those huge Mallet steam locomotives sitting on makeshift rip tracks out in Starr Yard (an old brickyard location way out east of the main yard), being cut up for scrap and loaded into low sided gons heading for the mill. A sad, SAD time. We were the last to see them go. Others had switched 10 years before, so we were just late in witnessing the final transition that changed our town forever.

As much as I witnessed and remember, I still kick myself for having not paying MORE attention to many of the things that were still to see and absorb.

I was lucky to have been allowed in Jarvis Jewelers to watch and occasionally talk to Mr. Jarvis himself, or one of his watchmakers as they worked. He did not 'suffer' unaccompanyed kids very well being in his shop as an old man unless they had business with him, but through that aforementioned family connection, he knew my great grandfather QUITE well, him being chief engine inspector before he retired, and so allowed me to stay a spell as long as I didn't bother anything or anyone.

Mr. Jarvis was the first one who introduced me to the screw down railroad safety swivel for a watch chain that I mention so often here. That's what I still use on two of my chains for my large 18s railroad watches. They're difficut to find anymore, but well worth the effort to find AND use. I love mine to death, as they take me back to that small inspection shop that reeked of stale cigar smoke and filled with the sound of ticking timepieces hanging on the wall above the watchmakers bench.

Above the bench on the back wall hung the big square Western Union master clock. Black and unadorned, but in a place of honor and shelves around it clear of debris so men could see the time as soon as they walked in the door headed to the ready track to pick up their engines for their next run, it was definitely the main time source for setting the watches that came and went through his door. I witnessed more than one conductor or engineer stop by to have their watch checked by Mr. Jarvis to that master clock before they walked across the street on their way to work.

By this time, the mid 1960's, my Dad had decided to give me my great grandfathers 21j Elgin 18s watch. That's was my 'credential' to get me through that door of Mr. Jarvis, as I wanted him to look it over since he had been its last railroad inspector during it's working career.

Mr. Jarvis taught me to wind my watch at approximately the same day every day. For some odd reason I picked 6:02 p.m. Not sure why. He also put it on his timing maching (first I ever saw in my life) and it showed flat line in all positions. That was a good watch. He explained that usually they would keep a watch that needed a full service for a week in order to observe its operation in all positions over several days time, issuing a man a loaner while their watch was in the shop. He said that quick test told him my Elgin was in full adjustment, and that he would have certified it ready for work that very day if I had brought to him for official certification.

Oh, and to repeat 'ad nasium', this was the watch that was stolen from my Dad when I had left it with him to put in the family safe deposit box when I was working in Florida in the late 80's. When at the bank, he got distracted with some paper work and literally forgot to put it in the deposit box, leaving it on the table and walking out. Someone who walked in behind him carried it off. My watch, chain and fob were never seen again. I never DID understand that entire scenario as my Dad was VERY meticulous in his dealings, but I was 600 miles away in Florida and could only mourn its loss from a distance...and 22 years later as of this posting I still do.

Lots of little memories like that....but not enough to really satisfy. I can still close my eyes and see the front window of Jarvis' Jewelers being full of boxed Ball wristwatches for sale (still something I want to get for myself before I'm too old to care), but a only a few examples of pockets watches in the cases inside. I do recall Hamilton's being there in a line (had to be 992b's, considering the period of time. Elgin would have been essentially out of business as an American railroad watch maker by that time, I suppose), but why didn't I ask Mr. Jarvis about any trade ins?!!!! I KNOW he had 2 drawers absolutely FULL of old watches, one with 16s and the other 18s just tossed in piles, as he pulled an old bezel off a case to fit one on a mans watch while I stood there watching. (a reason why I always smile when folks post their irritation of finding a railroad watch with mis-matched case parts, and how they believe the seller was trying to pull a 'fast one'. I SAW an inspector replace a bezel, so it was a common practice to just keep watches in service.) What watches could have possibily been in those drawers?!

I still kick myself over and over for not being more proactive then...but I was a kid. Then again, in thinking back, had I asked about all those old trade-ins, Mr. Jarvis would have more than likely said 'Why do YOU care? You HAVE a watch." Like I said, folks only owned one watch at a time. Owning more than one was considered, simply put, stupid and frivilous. A man would take his railroad watch off his work chain, leather fob or shoe string (yep, shoe string) and put it on his Sunday-go-to-meeting dress chain, but it was always the same watch. Few men owned two in my town.

I don't know if Mr. Jarvis ever knew my name, though. He was a moody man who on one trip in was very friendly, and the next trip wanted to know what the @#$% you wanted. He always referred to me as 'Pete's great grandson' (Pete being the name of my great grandpa). He also told me to not waste my time becoming a watchmaker (an idea I was toying around with in my kid's way), as I had told him I heard of a watchmaking school in Cincinnati. He said even then his days were numbered in the business. Within 10 years he was gone, as was his shop. The railroad tore down the railroad YMCA behind his shop and sold the land back to the city, and a year later the jewelery shop building was razed. There's now an auto carwash sitting in the hole in the hill where these buildings that were operating 24/7 in all weather once stood and thrived. Almost brings a tear to my eye thinking about it.

Ah well, the memories of a misspent youth in an old railroad town. Grouchy old men, and the smell of coal dust, diesel fuel, cigar smoke, and creosote.

I have other stories of spending an afternoon watching the division dispatcher work the CTC boards in the Portsmouth station back in the early 70's, but that's best saved for another time and thread.

Regards! Mark

P.S: For those poor watchmakers who have serviced my current stable of watches, I hope this essay offers an explaination why I insist on my watches coming back holding railroad standard time. I was warped at an early age, and have never been able to accept anything less. For that, I apologize, but, as my kids say, that's just 'the way I roll'.

p.p.s. UPDATE! I just found an image of the Portsmouth YMCA taken just after it was built in 1907. Joyce/Jarvis jewelers was located just to the left of the image, just out of frame.
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imageba...hern/full/nw4271.jpg
Interior view:
http://spec.lib.vt.edu/imageba...hern/full/nw4270.jpg

Hi Mark; This is a #2 Seth Thomas Regulator I acquired a few years back,quite remarkable glass advertising The Joyce Co. Jewelers,Opposite N&W YMCA,Portsmouth.It has a signed trapezoid movement. It has a Joyce repaired and cleaned sticker July 1938 and a sticker saying it was taken out of the Waverly depot on June 30,1956 This is for your pleasure a few memories from your past with my best wishes,Tom

#2

WOW!! I bet Joyce was bought out by Jarvis, as I think he went in there about 39 or 40!

The Waverly station was on the Valley Run to Columbus, about 30 miles north of Portsmouth. I remember the Piketon station, located just south and outside of Waverly, but don't remember the Waverly station itself, as the N&W mainline turns away from U.S. route 23 just outside Piketon, and doesn't return by that road until just outside of Chillicothe, so unless we had a reason to go down by the track when in town, I never saw the station. I've seen photos, but that's all.

That is just TOO neat!! Thank you so VERY much for sharing this. It's the very first item I've ever seen from my hometown that was marked!!!

HIGHEST regards! Mark

#3

#4 including the very day it was de-commissioned

http://www.west2k.com/ohpix/waverly.jpg

For you, I give you a photo of the old Waverly N&W depot.

To confirm, I just checked Tom's watch inspector list, and Jarvis is listed at the 2901 Gallia street address in the 50's, so he did indeed buy out Joyce.

Regards! Mark

Glad it gave you a bit of pleasure Mark,all the best,Tom

PS. an Arthur Pequegnat #1 Regulator ,which is almost indistinguishable from the Seth Thomas # 2 with Canadian advertising on the door would tempt me greatly as a trade . The one illustrated is a double wind 15 day deadbeat movement spring powered and is a variant, the regular #1 Pequegnat is 8 day single weight

You made me smile, Tom! A first seen home related item for me, that's for sure!

HIGH regards! Mark

I still remember some of the steamers from Southern RR because whenever I did the week/2week vacation at my grandparents. There was a spur rail line that ran up to the coal mines that was about 100 feet from the back of their house. In the late 50's/early 60's they still had a few steamers for the secondary lines, later it was the diesels. You could feel the engine before it came into sight so as kids we would run out and move our arms, up and down to get the engineer to blow the whistle. That was not far from a main Southern line that ran through Robbins Tennessee. My wife tells me of being with her father in a tower close to the main double track that runs along Lake Erie near Sandusky Ohio and he would put the mail out and a passing train would "hook" the mail-bag and it would be gone. While I was at the Univ of Tenn. in the late 70's I always wore a 12s 15j Elgin that I got from my dad (he bought it when he worked in the coal mines) and I still have it today. When I went to some jewelry shops in Oneida Tn to see if they had some pocket watches I was told I couldn't afford them so I didn't start collecting watches until the later 90's. In Ga there are still some decent steamers left to look at, also in Duluth Ga there is a RR museum.
I certainly don’t mind the stories, On RR watch pricing it appears that Hamilton had a pricing structure closer to Hampden than Elgin, Waltham or Illinois.
From what I have seen the break down was in this fashion in regards to pricing. (not complete) that isn’t to say that Elgin or Illinois didn’t make less expensive watches only that if you look at a Bunn, BWR, Crescent Street that if you look at comparable movements Elgin/Illinois/Waltham the pricing would be within a few dollars, that is true for Hampden or Hamilton. Hamilton also appear to be more of a niche market and advertised and sold heavily to RR’ers where the other brands tended to try to cover all markets. In the end that might have been why Hamilton lasted longer than the others.
Tier 1 – Howard, Gruen etc
Tier 2- Elgin, Illinois, Waltham
Tier 3- Hampden, Hamilton, etc
Tier 4- Trenton, etc
Tier 5- dollar watches

You and I have a LOT in common, Claude. Our folks worked for the N&W at different ends of the line in Ohio....and I work at a graduate campus of the University of Tennessee. Small world.

You need to drive up to Chattanooga and visit the Tennessee Railroad Museum. You'll find Southern Mikado 4501 undergoing a complete overhaul and being readied for its 100th birthday rollout next year. You may have seen her on those spur line tracks back in the day, as it was one of the last steam engines they retired from those revenue duties in 1963.

I guess the bottom line to all my rambling over the past few days is, in order for ME to answer the posted question, 'railroad watches and just what is one?', it takes THIS writer down a LONG path of recollection of men long gone, an industry that controlled the lives of thousands of families, and pretty much a lost way of life. The question will mean something completely different to someone else.

Powerful little machines, these railroad watches were....

As to Hamilton being a 3rd tier, Claude....I don't know. They were specialized in the inspectors shop, but in downtown Portsmouth clear up into the early 70's we had a jewelry store on Chillicothe St. that sold both Hamilton dress pocket watches AND wrist watches exclusively.

So, the Hamilton railroad grade stuff stayed out by the yards, but the dress watches were sold downtown to the townsfolk, and quite aggressively too. I remember they were way out of MY price range!

Elgin did not hold that kind of spot down there, which always surprised me. Elgin reigned supreme with the railroaders, but Hamilton and Bulova held top spot with the civilian crowd and I don't recall ever seeing anything by Elgin in any of the downtown shops.

Regards! Mark

I guess I should qualify that a bit, 1930 and earlier and only RR watches 16/18 sizes. After 1930 Hampden was in Russia, and Illinois was part of Hamilton. Hamilton made some very nice dress pocket watches, along with Waltham, in the case of wristwatches I have a few Elgins but don't dabble enough to know the pricing structure. On the post 1930 16s RR watches you see toward the end where the prices for Elgin, Waltham or Hamilton were very close but by then I think all three companies knew the market was going away and the fact that they made nearly all components that the writing was on the wall. On the topic of quality I think you could take the better or any of the major brands, Rockford, South Bend, Illinois, Waltham etc and shake the bag and look to see which one falls out first. Maybe if you were back in the "days" and saw them flowing in for repairs one could make a comment or comments that this brand was weak here, these one here etc but to me most of the major names made some very good watches so I certainly won't sit around the coal stove and argue that point.

Gotcha! I know the B&OSW accepted Hampden's into service prior to 1900, as my great uncle carried a John C. Dueber Special when he was telegrapher in the South Webster and Sciotoville stations at the turn of the 20th century.

He HAD to go to the same inspector (probably Joyce, for all I know), so there were other makers represented in the early days, that's for sure.

Regards! Mark

Boys, as others have said before me, this has been and is still a really good string with all the commentary coming from all sides....

I grew up in rural Oklahoma in the 40's & 50's, on a small 180 acre farm till 52', then a town of 950 population after that....My Dad, trying to make ends meet, worked on the Frisco RR and ran the farm at night and week-end as best he could....

His job with the RR was in the Maintenance Dept. and he was, I believe called, a Crew Chief....he would take crews out during the day and work on track at places the RR inspectors would find that needed repairing and there were days that no work was required. He never knew if he was working until he arrived at the RR yard and would be informed as to whether or not work was required that day....

I knew the fellows that were in his 'repair gang', a couple of them went to the same church that we did in this little town and there was also an individual whom I always admired because of the way he dressed when he came to church on Sunday....Sam Yergen is his name and he along with all the other fellows that worked with my Dad wore nothing but Elgin pocket watches....BTW, Sam & my Dad were Deacons of the church and Sam was also a Conductor on the train that came through town twice a day....

My Dad carried an Elgin BWR, Grade 540, 23j and it never left his pocket except at night....I have no idea where he or the other fellows purchased their RR Watches because we did have a Jewelery store of sorts, it was "Bunyard Drug & Jewelery" but I never saw a pocket watch in Bob's show case....like Mark in his post said mainly Bulova & Hamilton wrist watches were the main items....with an occasional Gruen....We did have a fellow in town that kept all the clocks in shape for the RR by the name of Joe West and he could have been the one that had the watches that were purchased and used for the RR work....

Along 1949, there was a small girl of a family with the same surname as mine but no relation, and a Frisco RR train was coming back to the yard and this family lived in a farm house not more than 50-75 feet from the RR tracks and she was playing near the tracks and the train got her and carried her in bits and pieces(sorry to be so graphic)for a quarter of a mile....My Dad came home that evening and told my Mom what had happened that day and said to her that he would never set foot on another train or RR track....he quit that day and never looked back....I'm sure he was not the first nor the last....In that area and era, the Frisco RR was looked upon as a necessary evil, the farmers didn't like'em(too much noise around their animals) the ranchers didn't like'em(taking too much land for right of way and sometime an animal would get on the tracks and that would be the end of it)and take those two types from Roff, OK and there is very little left....

Back to the subject though, here is a list that Larry Buchan posted back in Oct.5, 2010 Railroad Watches At Square Prices....You need to scroll down to his last post of that day, Oct. 5,....I do not know the date of this price list because he does not stipulate that, but I thought it may tie in with some of the data that is being posted here....

Oh, BTW....My Dad's watch is at home with my Brother in Pauls VAlley, OK but he told me that it would not run and couldn't wind it....I told him to send it to me and I would get it back into proper shape, but he was hesitant because he wasn't sure I would send it back to him.... Anyway, I sent it to our Mr. Chris Abell and he made it look new again. Here is a photo of it....

Oh, I did send it back to OK, eventually....

Keep up the great work here and Mark, maybe you ought to write a book....seriously...! You could name it, "Growing Up By The Tracks", "The Life and Times of a Small Boy around Steam Engine Locomotives"....

We are all enjoying this string, I am sure....

Regards,

Jerry