Hello everyone. I am a novice to the area of pocket watches and I am very interested in repairing pocket watches, mainly 18 size Waltham and Illinois brands. I recently purchased a Waltham that needed a balance staff repair, and the case and crystal were in very bad condition. In your opinion, should I keep the movement in the case it was in, or would you change the case, so the watch has more appeal? I could also, just change the crystal, perhaps. Either way, I would appreciate your opinions in this matter. Jim, thanks. Adding a pic of the original case. A Gilbraltar, what appears to be a gf, with no Jewels repair marks on inside of back cover. Also, someone damaged the case trying to open it. I will post a pic of the other case as well. thx

Hi Jim,

Welcome aboard IHC 185! You are asking questions, which is good, but your brief narrative description of what you are dealing with gives us very little to go on. I suggest you read over our Posting Guidelines for Watches at the top of this forum and then post again, providing more details so our members can give you higher quality responses that you will find more useful.

Here is the other case I choose to put the movement into. The newer case is a Keystone silveroid, with a perfect crystal. To me the watch looks much better in the case I choose, but it is no longer original. So I guess that is my question. Is original better even if it seems to affect the appearance of the watch as a whole?

As Ed suggested pictures will help along with serial numbers of movements and sometimes cases as well.

Still leaves us guessing as we have to assume that your movement was an 18sz [since you state that is your preference], and the first case pictured is what it was in and your second case that we assume you put it in seems to show an assumed Waltham Model 92 looking at the DSD and hands. So you probably made a good choice as it appears more era correct.

Showing the movement will help at this point.

regards,
bb

The Gold Filled case in the first photo appears to have a lot of the Gold worm off. You also stated that is also damaged from someone trying to open it. In my opinion the gold filled case if it is as I described. Would not be a case that I would be proud to show off. The second case looks Better and would increase the value.

I like the second case much better and congratulations on joining!

Welcome James. I am assuming your question is more than just the condition of the two cases but you also want to know if by re-casing the original movement from the old worn out case to the newer case if the value would be affected since the mounting screws no longer match up and whether anyone here would leave the movement in the original case to keep it 100% original.

I think everyone here would agree if the original case was in serviceable condition I believe most people would leave it in the old case.

There are some who would change the old worn out case to a newer case if the mounting screws matched.

There are those who feel that any case better than the old damaged worn out case would be an improvement even if the case mounting screws did not match.

And then there are those who feel that they would prefer to keep the watch 100% original.

So you see James there are many different opinions to your question. I believe the majority of the members here would agree with Buster, Gene, and Deacon but not everyone here would agree. I happen to agree with them so there you have 4 supporting your swapping of the cases.
Harry

Great Input guys. Buster you are correct, it is a Vanguard 18s ca. 1900. So your guess of Model 1892 is correct. It was my suspicion that someone placed the movement into the case as I received it, just to try to get more money for the sale. But, someone did not replace the balance staff correctly, so they sold it. They did not align the safety roller with the safety-staff on the balance-staff, and bent the pivots. My main concern is about value now that I have changed the case. Is there reference material available about watch case numbers, relating to their age? The case I have is a Keystone # 3989329.
Harry you are also correct, there are now screw marks on the rear case from previous movements. I will attach a pic of movement. Again thanks for the input, I really appreciate the response.

James those early cases as well as most others, there is no real data-base for aging them. We have to look at the case to decide if it's "era" correct. In your case if the Vanguard was in the first case you pictured, that was not a correct case and it definitely didn't come in it as it was made later than your movement by observing its style with the medium height pendant along with the oblong shaped bow. This case you now have it in of silveroid alloy with the tall pendant and round bow would be an era correct case for your Vanguard.

We would all like to find our watches original or era correct, and that is the goal that should belong to each of us. Just as the old automobiles are put back into their original shape as when made, so should our watches. If that isn't an option for whatever the reason then a custom job may be the most we can hope for. Luckily we can still find most of the parts for our watch endeavors but sometimes it isn't easy and we may have a movement looking for a dial or a correct case for a long time before we find what we need to get it back to specs. Perhaps even for years..... But it gives us a chance to "hunt" for the part and that is where the fun of this hobby belongs, its all in the search-and-find. I can actually testify to waiting on correct parts for a specific watch for many years before they were found.

That's from the hobbyist standpoint only and in my humble opinion.

regards,
bb

James,

There is nothing wrong with a good solid silveroid/silverine (nickel) case. They surely outlive the Gold Filled cases that were normally warranted for 25 years down to 1 year - depending on the make.

The 1892 model Walthams have enjoyed a spike in price from 12-18 months ago. A person could purchase a decent unit for around 125$ in a Gold Filled case. However, lately that number is probably closer to 200 ish. So, you surely have a keeper there, imho. With the correct spade hands and nice DS dial...

Welcome to the IHC and nice to have another member from the State that produced Elgin, Illinois, Rockford, Aurora, etc...

Cheers!!!

James. welcome to the club!

Putting that model 1892, "21 Ruby Jewels Vanguard in a swing case is generally safer for the movement, and the swing ring can possibly be sanded down to reduce the unsightly "old" movement screw marks.

This is a turn of the century (1900-01) issue which with the Diamond end stones and "Ruby Jewel" markings puts it at the "Head of the class in collectible value for that series. So, if it has a damaged balance staff a clean and repair is definitely in order for the watch is easily approaching a $500.00 "book" these days.

James,

Welcome aboard. I am a huge fan of the model 92. It has some great engineering improvements over the model 83, is much more appealing to the eye, has better collector and resale value, and imho, they just have a great feel in the way they wind, set and run.

The silveroid swing cases are a nice fit for these watches in both form and function. I have been fortunate enough to land a couple GF cases, but as long as the case is period correct, the case doesn't affect the value as much as the condition of the movement, dial, correct hands...

Another fun thing about the '92 is that they came in so many variants over the years... I have a half a dozen now and am still a long way short of having a full boat. 15-23 jewel, two screw plate - three screw plates, new clicks - old clicks, standard markings - plugged markings, nickle- two tone, lever set - pendant set...

Check out this link on the model '92 watches.

http://www.model92.com/Home

Happy hunting, Paul T.

James you started a nice discussion. I am a fan of the 1892 Vanguards and when trying to figure out what case is appropriate for a movement the serial numbers on the case are usually of little help. You do have, as Buster noted, to develop an idea for the era of the movement. Besides what is shown in the Shugart book you can find advertizing from your watches era that will show cases available then. I also like the nickle alloy cases as they wear so well and were in fact the case for the average man.

I am overwhelmed with the input from you guys. What a knowledge base the IHC has here, incredible. I also like the look of the Silverine case it is in. Just so you guys know, I did replace the balance and the watch has been running since March 12th, I notice it is slow by a minute as of this posting. Has anyone ever posted your "stories", about what and why you started collecting watches? It would be very interesting reading to know what the driving force was that motivated each of you to begin to collect watches, and why it still holds each of you. Is there a topic for Bio's in the forums? Thanks again for the posts. Jim

James, you have a really nice Vanguard there!They were easily one of the finest RR watches ever made,that's a keeper for sure.Those model 92 Walthams are all very high grade and Waltham's most beautiful movement design.You can't have just one, because one is never enough! I have a 21J Vanguard like yours but in gold-filled, an 845 21J, and a 17J Appleton Tracy.I need to add a Crescent St.Can you spell "ADDICTION"? This watch collecting thing is like a drug, it hooks you and pulls you in, as you"ll likely find out...Ted.

James, please be aware that the balance is likely serialized to the movement (look on the bottom side of the cross arms for a whole or partial serial number). It is important to most serious collectors to have the balance serial number match the movement. There are times when a balance is beyond repair and a suitable replacement is the only option... but should be avoided if at all possible.

I have put surrogate balance assemblies in watches so I could enjoy them until I could find the time, money and watch maker with time to replace a staff or sort out a hair spring kink... but the original matched serial number balance should go back in as soon as possible.

Some guys will restaff a balance with little more than the balance, cock and plate... others want the entire watch and will not replace a balance without a commitment from you to spring for a complete COA. (which is the right way to go if you are not tooled up to do that part yourself).

Look for service offers under the watch and horology items for sale areas of this venue.

I landed a Two Tone 17J PS Bartlett recently and in the process figured out this watch is the lesser (adjusted(temp-Iso only)) version... the Appleton Tracy 17J is (adjusted to positions)... so, just when I was thrilled to have crossed 17J and Two Tone off my list in one buy, I find that I'm still a watch short of a full roster...

Happy Hunting, Paul

Paul, I mis-spoke when talking about this movement. I replaced the balance staff, not the balance as I typed. So it still has the original balance, sorry, I was typing toooo fast. Hey Ted, you are absolutley right about the "Addiction", I have three 23 jewel, and three 21 jewel Vanguards. I cannot seem to stop buying them. As long as the price is right, and it is not a junker. Later

James, If you want to spend some time on a search, find yourself a 19 jewel 1892 Vanguard and then go for a 17 jewel. That is a Quest to drive you nuts. Of course you could find a 17j 1892 Vanguard hunter or indicator to make it more challenging!

Which do you like best? Ah-ha, then use it especially if your are going to Cary the unit. If you sell it and they don't like the case then change it.