i bought this 23 jewel o/f fishscale #2593561 today at the fairlawn meeting.


i was emailing some pictures to a friend when i noticed what appeared to be a blue sapphire cap jewel on the balance. but something else was even more disturbing.... it looked like the screws that hold the jewel cup were sheared off.... plus... there was no jewel cup?

my immediate concern was a possible mismatching serial number on the underside of the balance bridge.

the raised surface or hub on the top side of the balance is machined in as part of the balance cock....(the area that has the circular "snap ring" portion of the regulator needle).... this was never counter bored or chamfered for a screw head.... but the underside is.....?

i have not seen this type of construction before... ?

is it an oddball? or have there been others built this way?

Hi Don,
Nothing to be concerned about. It's all normal. The screws hold the cap jewel in it's setting like this and it is raised so the regulator arm fits around it.

As for the blue sapphire, it probably needs cleaned and will return to normal.

I have straighten out some of these models because someone butchered up the cap jewel and tried to use a top mount and screws from the top.

You have a nice watch and all is right. Now you know what to look for in a 23J fish.

Don -

Here is mine at 2593852 for comparison ...



... and as you can see this has the same balance jewel arrangement.

This was typical to the high grade 16 size around this serial number range, and hopefully Mike or Terry can jump in with some more specifics on when this began and ended.

Fred

well i'll be...

i guess 2577290 (first pattern bright spot) threw me off course... evidently this was a trademark of the 23 jewel fishscale exclusively as i see the 21's had exposed screws too......

Don, First of all, this is a split run between fishscale 23's and rayed 23's, just for interest. Second, "around" 2,587,000, Illinois changed the balance bridge in most of their watchs and eliminated the gold jewel setting, and had the screws coming up , rather than screwing "down", (I have even seen this on 12 size watchs of the time period between 1914 and 1917 , approximately) . At around serial # 3,110,000, Illinois returned to making the balance bridge with a "normal" gold jeweled balance bridge with the jewel screw heads showing and going down. Please remember at around the beginning and end parameters of the serial numbers I am giving, one may see watchs either way, but it is pretty much a normal thing, between 2.6 million and 3.1 million to see what I call the "flat cap,screws up balance. This is a one of the many signatures of detail in Illinois watchs, that I started paying attention to years ago, in order to help me stay out of trouble and avoid buying a parts watch at a show, ....that happens often enough, even if everything "looks" right, so I felt every little advantage I could give myself would pay off. It has certainly helped me many times through the years in my searching for these rare birds. Happy "NO Parts Watches" Hunting!

My 21J BunnSpecial, SN 2809560, with the rayed pattern has the screws up in the balance cock.

Tom

come to think of it.... i had a sangamo cross hatch that i think mike c. bought from me in greensboro n.c. a year or two ago.... had screws up....

I like these and think they have a nice look.

My 23J hunting case Sangamo Special at 2.977 million serial number has screws up.

Same also with a 19J 3 position private-label at 3.098 million and a 21 jewel A. Lincoln at 2.834 million I had.

Also on this A. Lincoln private-label at 2.681 million.

But not on this grade 704 at a little lower 2.681 million number, possibly as this is a far lower grade watch than the others. But I still like it.

Fred

I found a few more with the screw-upward balance cock. All three are 17J, medium grade watches.

Model 6- SN 2811947
Model 7- SN 2915178
Model 7- SN 2742796

As you will note, all three of these are well within the SN range that Mike stated. I guess this might blow any theories that it was done on only High grade watches.

Tom

ps I noted Terry's post on the auction site and wanted to add that all three of these watches have the straight line dial as does the Bunn Special that I posted on earlier.

hi tom i had a 23j fishscale a while ago that "mr. fox" bought.... the original dial was a straight line signature ... RED DOT! if i am remembering right... maybe bryan can confirm this....?

Here's what I have:
21J Fishscale s/n 2,576,xxx Screwed down gold set balance cap jewel
21J Fishscale s/n 2,600,xxx 'Screws up' balance cap jewel
23J Fishscale s/n 2,593,xxx 'Screws up' balance cap jewel

21J Bright Spotted s/n 2,572,xxx Screwed down gold set balance cap jewel
23J Bright Spotted s/n 2,572,xxx Screwed down gold set balance cap jewel

For some reason, I hadn't paid attention to these differences until I saw
this discussion.....