RARE++ HAMILTON BALL 16 SIZE 21 JEWEL 992B 3 STAR RAILROAD POCKET WATCH 24H DIAL

I would like to say as Ed Parsons used to that I will post the answers on Saturday but I don't have all the answers.

I do however have questions, doubts and suspicions.

Page 153 of the 2015 Price Guide shows a 21J, M#992B, NI, marked 992B & Off. RR Stan., Adj. 6P….★★★ ABP $1500

20 bids to $511 with just under 5 days to closing.


What do you think?

Another View

[Movement number: C197456]

Lorne,looking at the stripes(damaskeen) appears not to line up to me.I would certainly wnt more input from the guys here that are in the know.

Roger

I have seen straight line damaskeened Ball 999B's in the past. You can't fake that barrel bridge. The serial number gives me pause, however.

Oh-No Not Again !! Same watch rearing its ugly head up. It first made it's debut 3 years ago on IHC185;

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...853971277#9853971277

It was a fake then and it is a fake now !!

This is the same seller that tried selling this in 2012. Back again !!

regards,
bb

Interesting that this is the same seller also.


"justdiscovered (1614 )"

So he knows that this is NOT the real deal, I would think.

Regards,
Larry

The sad fact is someone's bidding 511 right now for this. And will probably go higher. Talk about a watch that plies on greed, this one is it...

Would these Ball 992Bs originally have been configured for the CPR?

What should the correct Ball number series on the pillar plate be?

There were actually never any Ball Hamilton 992B's made from the factory for the market.

There is a report that some 40 years ago a Ball Hamilton 992B #1B13315 surfaced with Ball's standard "round or circular damaskeened" pattern. It hasn't been seen since and its the only one that may have existed and no one anywhere confesses to owning it. Even if it did exist, it was a piece that someone assembled at the Hamilton factory OR was an error that was made up, in any event, it is doubtful that it ever reached the public if indeed one existed at all. I believe all the evidence that we have of that one is in an artist's conception/drawing shown here, but it could be an old Black & White picture, but never the less none of them were ever marketed by Ball or Hamilton for retail consumption.

"C197456" IS a Frankenberry watch with Hamilton 992B plates AND Ball 999B plates that someone has joined to appear to be something that never was. The dial is a Ball Hamilton 24hour dial and it's in a Canadian "Sturdy" case. It is a hodgepodge of leftover parts that will all interchange.

Interestingly the train/barrel bridge plate is off of a straight line damaskeened Ball 999B of which only 700 pieces were made.

Don't be mislead, confused, or deceived by this controversial "coffee table" Frankenstein piece of deception.

Good recall Buster, this was way over my head when it came up 3 yrs. ago.

I am learning as my doubts and suspicions have been confirmed.

The seller says this example is coming from a collection where it sat for over 20 years.

Perhaps he should change his ebay handle to justre-discovered.

Buster I have been looking everywhere and cannot find a picture of that movement. Where did you find it?

I know Richard had posted it, but was wondering if there were any more of them that we can look at.

Regards,
larry

Yes, I read all of it today and saw where it came from Lindell. Thank you!

I should have come back on and mentioned it.

So in the end we really cannot say for sure that even 1B13315 is still out there now.

I have emailed the seller a couple of times, including sending him that picture. Still no response. I guess he is just going to let someone take the hit this time. It is really too bad to do that to someone knowing that it is a fake, and then just saying that it is something that it is not.

Regards,
Larry

Here is the message I am sending to the seller...
_________________________________

Dear justdiscovered,

Unfortunately, your watch is a fake. Yours is NOT the Ball 992B shown in the watch guide. That was a factory error with number 1B13315 on the plate. Your watch was put together out of unrelated parts and we exposed it as a fake in February of 2012 at our IHC185 Discussion Site. Right now we have a topic about it under discussion for our IHC Members. You may call me at 440-461-0167 or send an eMail to ihc185atroadrunner.com and we will send you the true facts. If you register and Join IHC at IHC185.com you would benefit greatly. Sincerely, Lindell V. Riddle, President.

- ihc185
_________________________________

We will find out if we are dealing with someone honest or not.

Lindell

That's great Lindell!!

Now we wait.

Regards,
Larry

If you look at the other listings by this seller (in Canada), you will find a lot of soda bottles and some nice watches including a REAL Ball-Waltham 999 19J.

As the Hamilton "C" series were NEVER used for (B prefix) Ball watches, I suggest that Lin might write him again and explain the safest route for him to take is to retract that listing until (we can help him if he joins) it gets positively identified.

Well here is the answer I got from him;
_________________________________

"Hi Larry, I'm sorry I haven't responded up to this point, I just don't feel like getting in an argument with no end. In short, despite what you've stated regarding the watch, I believe it was born this way. I have spoke with many collectors and although a couple, like yourself seem to believe otherwise - there are several who agree with me. I'm not trying to deceive anyone - I have photographed the watch for buyers to see and make their own conclusions. The reason the watch is being listed again is because it was sold locally and I have just traded it back, with several other watches. All I can suggest is that if you don't like it, or believe it to be right, then don't bid. I'm sorry it bothers you so much - good luck on the watch you are bidding on!
Thanks!"
__________________________________

I have been in his shoes a few times when I started selling and know what he is talking about. It's NOT fun.

It's really too bad that there isn't a picture of the real watch in the Price Guide like the ones Lindell provided on page 153. They say that there is a Ball Hamilton 992B, and that is is a rare watch BUT that is it. No mention of there being only one of them or a picture. If this watch is that rare, and there was only one ever made, then why not a picture of it, or at least just a little bit more info like on some of the other rare watches. To me that would make it a lot easier for the people who make the "Price Guide" their [Bible] when it comes to these watches, and would answer a lot of questions.

I know that it cannot be done on all of them, but where there is only one ever made, and it is listed why not explain it just a little better?

JMHO here.

I just hope Lindell's email will help them decide to do the right thing.

Regards,
Larry

Larry, there is just not enough time and energy to do everything we would like to, but a few years ago we got the erroneous "23-Jewel 999B" listing removed from the Watch Guide and the three legitimate 999B variants put in so in the future we can likely accomplish what you suggested. But for today, we need to narrowly focus on the problem at-hand.

Since there has been no response to the message we sent this seller yesterday from our ihc185 eBay account I have taken further steps. (Remember, this seller has been informed numerous times in 2012 about the true facts about their counterfeit watch and again this year but they persist in what can only be considered deceptive practices, so I say the more messages they get about this turkey, the better!)

We have linked this topic into "Pocket Watches" and "Ball Research" but it is viewable only by IHC Members. If the seller continues much longer with their deception, I am tempted to take the unprecedented step of placing a post in public warning about the counterfeit watch by number and also a link to their current auction. For the time-being I urge others to contact the seller and try to get them to do the right thing. I am confident that if we could get them on-board here we could convince them of the true facts. By the way, it is important to realize that counterfeit movement C197456 was easy to fake because all the parts easily interchange and the plates on Hamilton "B" movements were not individually numbered.

And think of this, consider the fact that since Roy Ehrhardt shared his image of 1B13315 back in 1980 some 35 years ago and we posted it in public in 2007 at ''Ball Hamilton 999B Models, 21and 23jewel Question - Basic 999B History and More!" no legitimate "Ball 992B" has ever surfaced despite the fact that thousands of collectors have been looking and looking. So...

Earlier today (March 6, 2015 11:52:40 AM EST) I sent the following message and 2 images to the seller from "southbendpolaris" which is my personal eBay account...

_____________________________________________________

Hi justdiscovered,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if you do not know this already I must inform you this watch is an illegitimate counterfeit, a clever fake put together to deceive an uninformed buyer. It is well known among Ball Watch Collectors that one and only one was made by mistake back in the 1940s and that one, number 1B13315 in the attached "picture 1" looks nothing like yours. Your watch uses a train bridge from a Hamilton 992B installed along with other parts including the barrel bridge from a narrow damaskeened, late 999B and using the pillar plate number C197456 which is from a1948 Hamilton 992B to try and "re-create" something that did not really exist. Look at the attached "picture 2" from your auction and carefully examine how the lines on the damaskeening are of slightly different widths and that when assembled on your watch the lines are at slightly different angles. These are the facts, I urge you to stop your auction "due to an error" and keep your integrity intact.

- southbendpolaris

_____________________________________________________________

Picture 1 referred to in the message is the one I prepared and posted several years ago from the "1980 Ehrhardt Price Indicator" showing factory error number 1B13315 that Buster posted above and that first appeared during 2007 in the previous "Ball Hamilton 999B Models, 21and 23jewel Question - Basic 999B History and More!" topic.

Picture 2 which is attached below is of the fake, counterfeit watch bearing number C197456 and taken from the current eBay auction number 221702053433 to which I added a red circle and 2 yellow arrows in order to help explain what I was trying to point out in my new message to the seller.

Bottom line as I said in 2007 and linked to since... "be careful, unscrupulous tricksters have been known to put unrelated 992B and 999B plates together in order to deceive and a few fraudulent examples have been sighted." So, please read what I sent the seller, examine the picture shown below and see what you think.


Below, my "Picture 2" sent to the seller through eBay earlier today...

Thanks Lindell.

I hear what you are saying. I guess I never thought that something like this would bother me so much, but it does when I think that someone could be paying a LOT of money for nothing more than a FAKE!!

Remember when you used to spend "HOURS" on the phone with me trying to explain things like this to me when I first started selling these gems??

Now I see the points that you were trying to drill through this thick skull!

Regards,
Larry

Lin is at the heart of what IHC185 is all about!

I guess I wont bid on this anymore.i am actually the high bidder right now.i am glad I found this discussion about it.if no one out bids me in the next day or before it ends,i wont carry through with it,nothing he can do about it if he already has this information.thanks so much for this site and all the knowledge in it.it looks like it is going to save me some embarresment.thanks again guys...

I just sent the seller the following message;

"The only 1943 and later 16 size Hamilton Railroad watches sold by Ball were marked model number 999B and serialized with "B" prefix serial numbers. This watch has s/n C197456 which is certified by Hamilton manufacturing records as a Factory 992B model produced in 1947.

Clearly the watch you listed has a late 999B Train Plate assembled to the 992B factory parts. While the train plate and (possibly) the dial are legitimate, the watch as shown is NOT.

I suggest you pull the listing and contact a Hamilton collector who may have some parts to return this to the correct 992B status and return to you the dial and late 999B movement plate which you should be able to sell profitably as well as spare parts."

I also told him that his watch has been altered and reported it to Ebay.

Victor, I urge you to cancel your bid now so that maybe he will get the hint and end this.

http://ocsnext.ebay.com/ocs/sr...olName=Retract+a+bid

I urge you to cancel your bids.

Regards,
Larry

I was out bid and it is over $1000 now.some poor person is getting stuck with this fake.i reported the seller to ebay and emailed him also.

yeah good luck with reporting him as ebay is looking for the end game profit, few members reported already and the watch is still for sale that should let you know they do not care if it is fake or not.
My 2 cents.

NICE Lindell!!

Good to see leadership take the "lead" on this one.

I have contacted this seller and sent him more than one email, with pictures, explaining that this watch is a fake, and why, and still he will NOT pull it.

I have even offered to buy it like you suggested, take it apart and make it the "correct" 992B that it should be, and send him the serial number to this watch to show that I will NOT try to sell it and make money on it, to no avail.

I back you 100% on this, and am SURE there are many collectors who will back you on this also!

Best Regards,
Larry

I agree 100% with all that has been said and agree with Lindell wholeheartily on this. This type of seller not only hurts the unwitting buyer, he hurts all of us because in the future the buyer will likely be very hesitant to continue buying after he realizes he has gotten burned on this bad deal, and we will lose not only future sales but a prospective watch hobbyist as well. So everybody in effect loses when this happens. I hope that what we are doing here works itself out in the right way.

It's apparent that this "justdiscovered" homey and the "Bones" boy out in California are right close kin.

IHC185 is a learning "channel" for those interested in more knowledge in horology and business 101.

With the seller marketing this same watch twice in 3 years and knowing for sure what it is, it is painful for me to watch prospective buyers bidding for this watch .

Learn members, learn. "Fool me once, shame on you ! Fool me twice, shame on me" !!

regards,
bb

Over $1500 now. I "Googled" this serial # C197456 and it now pops up so does a "Ball 992B" search.
_________________________________

Dear justdiscovered,

Fake, fake, fake, This one is going to come back to haunt you. Selling a fake watch is fraud.

- philsan1a


RARE++ HAMILTON BALL 16 SIZE 21 JEWEL 992B 3 STAR RAILROAD POCKET WATCH 24H DIAL
RARE++ HAMILTON BALL 16 SIZE 21 JEWEL 992B 3 STAR RAILROAD POCKET WATCH 24H DIAL
Item Id: 221702053433
End time: Mar-08-15 18:50:45 PDT
Buyer:

philsan1a (2761)
100.0% Positive Feedback
Member since Jan-26-03 in United States
Location: GA, United States
Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.

_________________________________

(The message above was sent to the seller through eBay channels so it is recorded.)