Hi, imcame across a waltham vanguard s18 23j. The movement says 23j on a small brass.
Disc. So i guess it was plugged, a 21j plate turn into a 23j? Was two holes drilled into the
plate to make it a 23j? When i look up tthe serial number, 10018475 its comes up as a 21j
but the small brass disc say 23j. I am new to collecting, i am just not sure. Will this drop the value
of the watch? Thanks, art

here my issue from 23j to 21j
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6047761/m/2973931587

Peter, does it mean it was a 21j plate and two holes drilled into it for the others jewels to make it a 23j ?
The serial number when looked up say its a 21j movement. does it decrease in value because it is plugged
and serial number comes up as a 21j movement ? Thanks,

no on yours they just added 2 cap jewels as far as I know but others might explain better .

Peter, is it unusual for records to indecate thatbitt is a 21j movement?
And does this devalue the watch. The reson why i ask i have an opeopportunity
to Purchase a 23j waltham. Thank you for your info and patience
Peter, art

Arthur, the 23J 18s Vanguards are 21J movements with a jeweled motor barrel added which raised the ante by 2 jewels. That made them one of the best watches you could buy.

Thanks David, being a newbie at collecting i want to thank everyone for there help and patience.
I wanted to buy a elgin veritas s18 23j, but they are always out of reach for me in price in nice condition.
i came across this waltham vanguard s18 23j that has a plugged movent. It seems the elgin veritas commands
a higher price and are more desirable then the waltham vanguard. I know the elgin has roughly a 26,000
production compared to the waltham 100,000. would it be ok to pick up the waltham at a good price? Does it being a plugged
movement effect its valuue? The serial number 10018475 comes up as a 21j movement. Thank you for your time and patience. Art

Arthur,

I find them more interesting. If anything, they are less common than the unplugged versions.

If you float around in various searches for "plugged jewel" or "plugged position" you will find several post with all sort of ideas for why they were done and what they mean to us.

Best I can figure is that these were slow movers for what ever reason and the manufacturer was adding or subtracting features from bulk runs to try to reach a shift in the market and move product.

Perhaps they were done to meet a change in the market requirements to meet a certain grade or specification...

I have a 23J Vanguard 5 position watch adjusted and plugged for 6 positions.

I paid the sellers ask for the watch because I found it to be a bit more interesting than the standard production model.

Your watch is a re-case, which is far more detracting than the jewel plug. If anything, the jewel plug and history behind it is a plus.

Arthur, it would "book" at about $400.00 with a case that shows only case screw marks for that movement. Otherwise, $350.00

Thank you everyone for the info, since this is a recase does that take value away ? And how would i know That its a recase, what do i look for? The dial is pristine and the case is nice, what is the general value of the watch, thank you all, art

Thanks dave, being new to collecting, i feel likemi am taking a crash course here. I am learning so much from everyone here,
thhank you all. From learning if a movement has been re cased to plugged movements. Once again to all i appreciate your time
knowledge and patience, i know i will come up with studpid questions in the future. Art

We all started where you did. You have asked very good questions.

I decided not to purchase the vanguard, the recasing kind of bothers me,
plus ive been emailing the seller about the condition of the dial,
more then twice, they never responded.

An unresponsive seller is always a red flag.

You can minimize the questions by learning how to navigate the site with the "find/search" feature above.

Just like surfing the web or any other site... start with a buzz word... if that returns too many hits, narrow your search with another buzz word or modifier to cut out some of the chaff...

If you want to search the entire site... start on the main page... If you want to narrow the search, start in the section that makes the most sense... the search feature will only search that section.

After awhile, the information starts to gel in to a picture that makes sense at a glance.