I am looking at a visually nice example of a Hamilton 4992b on E bay. It is referred to as a "Master Navigation Pocket watch". What exactly is a "Master navigation pocket watch" in military usage terminology, and, in the forum's opinion, how does it differ from (or compare with) other similarly produced time pieces from the WWII era?

Thanks in advance,

Mason Stewart

Mason-
The 4992B was designed to be the master timepiece for aircraft navigation in the same way a chronometer is used for shipboard navigation. For this purpose, when the stem is pulled to the "set" position, the balance and second hand are stopped so the watch can be synchronized with standard time signals such as WWV or CHU.

Regards,
Bob

Thanks Bob!

Mason

Hello Walter,

Here is a little information comming out of a bubble octant manual used during WWII. They compare the Hamilton 4992b and Model 23. The model 23 was used in the bubble octant used for navigation. I produce this as I read you wanted a comparison of other timepieces of the day. Mike


I hope the text is large enough to read.

These are really nice and well made military timepieces.

However, EvilBay spreads all kinds of misinformation about military timepieces. In this case the real name of this timepiece is 'Watch, Navigation, Master' and not 'Navigation Pocket Watch'. Also the seller's description of 'rare' is subjective and it does not rise to that in my mind as many were made and few have ever been thrown away. While these are not found in every dealer's inventory or in the back of everyone's sock drawer, they are not hard to find and buy. The comment about a 'very rare' silver case is also somewhat fluffy. The case on this one as on most is 80% silver sterling is 92.5% pure which is fairly typical. During the war the price of silver was very low and since steel was a strategic metal, silver was a cheap and easy substitute for things like watch cases.

A significant issue with this particular example is that it does not have its carrying case, and that is likely part of the reason the seller may be calling it a 'pocket watch'. These 4992b's were mounted in large metal tub-like cases with internal shock mountings to protect the timepiece. These metal shock carrying cases with internal shock mountings are important to have if you want a complete example. The carrying cases are not easy to find without a 4992b already mounted in them, and they can be quite pricey all by themselves without the watch.

To answer the question of how they might compare to other military timepieces of the war time, I think these 4992b watches are great examples of higher quality military timepieces from that era. That said, my personal favorite of the nicest and most complicated US made military timepieces from WW II are the Hamilton/Elgin model 37500 five-dial aircraft 'Elapsed Time Clocks'. These were made as a joint project between Hamilton and Elgin.

These also not not found everywhere, but they are not hard to find and buy, on Ebay or at dealers.

Michael,

The info provided was indeed quite readable, intructive and informative; thanks for providing it. It filled in more than a few gaps.

Jim,

Thanks for your thoughtful critique of the ebay listing. As you may know from some of my earlier posts, I tend to collect items that I feel are examples of ART and TECHNOLOGY coming together to produce something really special. I have things as different as a fragil art deco atomizer from the 1920's to a 1960's Fred Bear hunting bow; a 19th century chronometer, an early 20th century sextant and several deck wathes.

WWII era time pieces are, to me a treasure trove of functional high quality technology that also possess extraordinary beauty when closely examined...but as a "generalist" I lack the specific knowlege sometimes required to adequately judge period pieces; so input from experts like you and the folks on this forum are really appreciated.

I still like the item in question, but feel I have a better understanding of its "rarity".

Thanks all, again,

Mason

I just noticed that the 4992B silver "Master Navigation Pocket Watch" just sold for about twice what I have seen similar 4992B's sell for on EBAY. In the forum's opinion, was this just a bidding war between several uninformed collectors, or, to return to my original question, was there something about this one that set it apart...that perhaps I should look for in the future?

Thanks in advance,

Mason

I placed a value of $2500.00 on that one.
Hamilton 4992B first run of 4,000 silver Bu.Aero. U.S. Navy with original box rare find
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...ageName=STRK:MESE:IT
I too agree with Jim that the metal or wooden shock carrying cases with internal shock mountings are important to have if you want a complete example.

Aloha Scott

wow! That much? From my novice memory of other 4992B's that I had seen and allowing for the rare box and and silver case, I was thinking around $1,100. Boy, did I have it wrong:-) In your estimation, What would the value have been had it also had the shock mounted carrying case?

There is another one (base metal and no box) currently on eBay, with the bidding around $300. How does it compare?

Thanks,
Mason

I would chalk it up as a very atypical price. In my experience this can happen from one of three things:

1) A bidding war
2) Interest generated from a discussion on a website such as this one
3) Shill bidding by the seller or a confederate of the seller.

There is no real way to tell which of these three things is going on. I have no knowledge of this seller and they may be very honorable and legitimate, but number 3 sometimes has some tell-tales in an auction. Of course I am definitely not saying this happened in this case as I have no proof at all, but when I see things such as a deliberately obscured seller location which is the case here, and a very large number of bids especially when one or two bidders keep outbidding themselves repeatedly such as is the case in this auction, my antennae go up. I have found that perfect and near perfect ratings are not always good indicators of such things as Ebay typically refuses to take any action even when there is serious proof such as the same object (same serial number)selling repeatedly and coming back up for auction by the same seller over and over.

As of 1957 the total production for the 4992B 24 hour Master Navigational Watch was 119,739. The 3992B 12 hour Master Navigational Watch was 2,494.

During WWII, 2,000 watches were produced for the British Navy (mostly 3992B). 312 were produced for the Canadian Navy. 73,285 were produced for the Army and 21,151 for the Navy. Most of the Navy models were in silver cases. They produced 7,726 Navigational Watch Boxes for the Navy. I get a total of 97,118 Master Navigational Watches produced for the Armed Forces during WWII. Small numbers were also produced for civilian use including for the major airlines
I place a higher value on
Early Bu. Aero. U.S. Navy and U.S. Army Air Corps engraved on the plates in a wooden box for Navy and metal for Army of $2,500.00
for the 3992B with U.S. NAVY BU.SHIPS with broad Arrow engraved on the plates in a wooden box $5,000.00
Aloha Scott

I can call myself lucky for finding this; Hamilton 3992B

Michael, Jim, Scott, Werner,

Thanks all. good information; a lot to chew on; a lot to learn; great source!

Werner, I have never seen a 3992B, thanks for sharing.

Mason

Hello everyone,

Check this ebay auction out. I know the silver cases are a little rarer than base but does anyone know what is so special about this one? WOW

Jim, here is another one for you!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hamilton-4...&hash=item3cbacd27c5

That´s what I would call a nice bit of shill bidding (on a nice watch though)!
There are other silver 4992b on offer, going at the "normal rate".

Ok, I'll bite; what the heck is a ANTIQUE PATEK PHILIPPE QUALITY HAMILTON 4992B compared to regular quality Hamilton 4992B’s...and even with the unique looking dial how does it justify a $4700.00 price tag?

http://cgi.ebay.com/HAMILTON-4...&hash=item25652ca7cd

Aside from being a bit “over the top” on the “gaudy” scale, wouldn’t converting it to a wrist watch actually decrease its collector value?

Mason

Mason, I know little but I do know that some early GCT 24 hrs pocket watches were two tone dialed to signify day and evening hours. Maybe wristwatches had the same option early on. I do know that most now seen on eBay listed are redials and use original watch cases and movements but the dial has been refinished to make the watch seem more rare. Would someone like to elaborate with an original two tone pocket or wristwatch for 24 hr dials? I know I don't have one! Best, Mike

Like here is an example, not a Hamilton GCT but an Elgin wristwatch that, in my opinion only, has been redialed to appeal to collectors. There are dozens like this available almost constantly. Nice looking I must admit though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-ELGIN-...&hash=item45fc565ba5

quote:

Here is a little information comming out of a bubble octant manual used during WWII. They compare the Hamilton 4992b and Model 23. The model 23 was used in the bubble octant used for navigation. I produce this as I read you wanted a comparison of other timepieces of the day. Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for including an extract from the 'bubble octant manual'. Would it be possible to include the subsequent pages with the figures mentioned?

TIA.

Ken

Hello Ken,

I have atatched a picture of the figure #402 I believe. Unfortunatly I was unable to atatch the original scan. There was some sort of pixelation issue with downsizing the photo. So I took a picture of the scan insead. I hope it is ledgable enough. These scans I have were from a gentleman in New Zealand who collects sextants and octants. I asked him for anything that may mention military timepieces and this and the other document is what he could find for me. For the life of me now I can not remember his name or contact information for more. Regards, Mike

Notice the absence of manufacturer names: Hamilton is mostly known for these particular timepieces as they made the most. We can not forget Breitling, Waltham, Elgin and Longines and others that escape me this moment.

Many thanks Mike for posting the additional image. This and the earlier extract provide interesting information.

cheers, Ken

Michael, was this the manual the pictures came from?
Bubble octant manual

Werner,

I am sorry but I do not know. The gentleman that helped me just looked for any subject matter involving timepieces for me. It is quite possible that it is from that manual. Regards.