I recently saw this watch on ebay UK and I'm thinking of trying to get it, since it is in Portugal as I am, and the seller told me that I could pick it up in person if I won the auction. But I would like to know your experienced opinion about it. Do you think it's all original as the seller claims?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zeni...&hash=item4d0b12e88e


Thanks for your help,
Pedro

Well I'm far from the authority on these though I've owned a few, but I believe that none of the air issued watches had a bow , as these were designed to fit in a dashboard clip. The bows were added post war to facilitate civilian use of the watch with a chain. The vast majority I have seen have had this addition,seen as a necessary modification at the time ,now seen as a non military alteration. The fully original watches have no holes for a bow to fit in as they did not use a bow.

I personally think people get too hung up on the 'added bow ring' angle - these watches were kept in service into WWII and would have been adapted. I have not seen a Zenith Mark V without such a ring in fact. Also, the Zenith Mark Vs barely qualified as WWI issue and many were inter-war issue anyway - the example cited has the inter war A.M. engraving added, which is quite common on Zeniths. Everything else checks out on this watch in my opinion.
Regards,
Martin
P.S. I would query the dating of this watch to 1916, but it's a common misconception. (It's more like 1918 at the very earliest). Also, the reasoning behind the requirement for luminous/non-luminous dials is obscure. I think one of the earliest luminous dials was a Mark IV supplied to the RNAS by Alexander & Co; most of the others were post WWI I believe.

I was going by the two I had,which had no bow or the holes to hold one, and were clearly made for dashboard mounting in a plane,and mounted by being clipped into a bracket. The watches were not made to have a bow,and the Brits,being sticklers for detail, would have issued an order or revision of same to authorize the addition of the bow. To this day I have never seen such in print!!! However perhaps Werner and Konrad can chirp in,both with superior knowledge to mine I have observed over the years that collectors pay higher for non converted watches which is exactly as you would expect !!!

Dear Tom and Martin, First, thank you very much for you replies.

About the bow, I had no idea that the first edition didn't had them, so one more thing I learned in this helpful page!
About the true age of this one, I was believing it was a WWI edition because of the movement, that I believed was slightly altered later on based on what I saw here:

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk....php?showtopic=52265


Best,
Pedro

Hallo Pedro and Tom and friends,
I only have the specs of the Mark IVA 8-day of 1917 (book page 386, att an excerpt):
Its clearly mentionend in §10:
The pendant must not have any holes for a bow.
Wether these specs are similar for the Mk V, I do not know.
As I saw many of these watches with bows, I suspect that the pendant rings were added by military service as these watches were used up to WWII and maybe not only in the airplane holders.
. Gruesse/Regards/Salute Konrad Knirim
PS: Have a look at my books on Military Timepieces:
. http://www.knirim.de

Hi,

Interesting discussion!

Tom: Just to clarify that I was not disputing what you say. I was just making the point, which Konrad also makes, that these watches were kept in service and, as well as being sticklers for detail, we Brits are also great improvisers when necessity drives, so a bow may have been added in service. Many Zeniths with the AM mark also carry 'G S Type' scratched into their dials, meaning that it is equivalent to the 6E/50 issue of 1940 onwards. I still haven't seen a Zenith Mark V without a bow myself, although I have seen a few Mark IVs and Mark Vs 'bowless' as well as many Admiralty Type Is and IIs of the WWI era.

Pedro: I believe some Zenith experts date the Mark V movements to later than 1916 - I saw one expert say c 1920, based on the serial numbers observed. Some of the information in the watch forum discussion comes from Z M Wesolowski's book, a pioneering work. I believe the dating of Mark Vs to c 1916 comes from that book and is based on Mark V Omega movements being dated to c 1916, whereas Dr Knirim's excellent work makes it clear that the first Omega Mark Vs were not even ordered until July 1917 and did leave the workshop until months later than that. Dr K in his book specifies a Zenith Mark V with very similar serial numbers to the eBay example as being shipped to the RAF on October 5 1918, so that's how I would date the eBay watch.

Regards,

Martin

P.S. I hope the tone of my comments comes across as helpful rather than lecturing - that's my intention anyway!

I would urge you to read the Main Mark V watch discussion here. It currently has 240 responses and almost 32,000 views. There are many photos of Mark Vs there including many in their original state without the bow and several examples of the kind of mounting in which they were attached to the instrument panel of an aircraft. They were not made to be carried as pocket watches and their extra long winding stems were for the purpose of making it easier to wind when it was mounted in its instrument panel holder.

I do not know about Zenith serial numbers so I cannot comment on the exact year yours would have been made but for the most part all of the different makers of these built and provided them to the RFC and then RAF during the Great War since that is when the construction of so many new aircraft was going on. The British built over 58,000 aircraft during this war and they needed these timepieces for all of them plus spares.

The reason for luminous vs. non-luminous dials is generally said to be a result of dials painted with the radium and zinc sulfate paint were failing due to the constant strong vibration of the aircraft was shaking some of the paint loose. At the same time, while the radium paint was good for reading the time in night flights, it was not really critical since most aircraft had small instrument panel lights to allow the pilot to read everything clearly.

These are very nice military timepieces, though not really very rare as so many were saved and repurposed over the years.

The one in the photo for the auction to which you are referring has three non-standard aspects. The first is a bow has been added. It may have been done by the British military sometime after the Great War or it could have been added by a private jeweler once it was out of government hands. As was mentioned, these watches are well made and so the British military kept on repairing and reusing them for over three decades. Many were used all the way through the second world war and were finally surplussed off in the late 1940s. The watch in this auction appears to have been repurposed for second world war use since it has a second marking added to the back of the case - the AM and crown marking. That added marking is the second non-original aspect. The third non-original aspect is the crystal. These watches had very nice quality beveled flat glass crystals. This can be corrected by replacing the crystal but you will need to be sure you are using the correct style of glass crystal and not just any pocket watch crystal.

Hi again,

VERY interesting discussion indeed Martin! I don't take any comment (yours or others') as lecturing. I think we're sharing knowledge and opinions, and I'm loving it!

Jim, I had already read the main Mark V discussion, but it was too centered in case numbers and dial codes. At least that's what it seemed to me in the pages I've read (I admit I didn't read them all).

About the luminous radium and zinc sulfate paint falling from the dial due to the strong vibration, that's a very, very interesting perspective that never occurred me.

About your input about the selling Zenith, it confirmed what I thought. The cristal is not original but the seller points that out in the item description, so no big problem there. About the other marks, being made during military service, I really love them and I consider them as original. Of course, not original to the watch as it came out of the factory, but to it's purpose and military RFC or RAF day by day wear.
The only thing that really bothers me is the bow if it was added by a private jeweler. But, as I understand of your words, there is no way we can be sure...
About the buy itself, do you think being a Zenith is a good future investment, or I will just satisfy my passion and it will NOT increase in value?

Thanks a lot for all your interesting and knowledgeable answers.

Best regards,
Pedro

Bringing the topic full circle (and responding in part to Pedro's last post):

Has anyone seen a Zenith Mark V without a bow? (I haven't). If not, then any discussion of whether it's an original feature or not is surely moot in this instance?

Regards,

Martin

In Shugart and Engle, it states that by 1920 Zenith had made over two million watches. This one has a serial number over two million. So it would fit the generality.

I don't know if this is an issue or not, so I will ask for comments. From time to time I have seen Zenith watches with matching number cases and movements, at least for some civilian watches. Military watch movement and case numbers more often do not match. The question is, did Zenith cases and movements have matching serial numbers when they left the factory?

Tom and Greg and Konrad this an open forum and discussion about ongoing eBay auction is against IHC 185 policies because of the legal fall out.

And should be discussed in the Pitfalls.

Here is a picture I found on the internet.
The caption: "Zenith 1917 Cockpit Watch, Now in Zenith Museum (source: Military Watch Forum – James Dowling)"

And here is a very similar watch with very close matching serial numbers
http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27292

Re the luminous dial watch - I haven't seen SWISS MADE on a Zenith Mark V dial before, the font used for the C.B. code is a variant and the luminous dots haven't been improvised as they usually are. Looks characteristic of a MOD redial to me. Plus it hasn't got an issue number so had probably not seen service (as a luminous watch anyway) - a stores item? It shows that Zenith probably supplied Mark V cases without a bow but doesn't solve whether they were ever issued in that state?

Regards,

Martin

There was no reason to issue these with a bow. They were not pocket watches, they were aircraft instument panel timepieces.