Hello All, Here is the latest addition to the military section of my watch collection: It is a Waltham Vanguard with British military markings.

It is a bit of a puzzle since it is not really listed in the Shugart book where all the military Vanguards seem to have a wind indicator.

According to the serial number,(29452875), it is defined as "model 1623",but this one is adjusted to 6 pos.,not 5 like the book says. It is also lever-set and housed in a Dennison British made case.

Could this be a movement rushed into military service at the beginning of the war due to scarcity of supplies?

If anybody has more informations about this watch I'll be glad to hear about it.

Regards
Peter

I think anything is possible. It could be as you hypothesize of war time expediency, but it could just as likely be that the author of the reference book did not have all of the final information when he wrote it, or it could also just as likely be that the movement is not the one that the watch was originally fitted with and at some point along the way, the military or a later civilian watchmaker repaired a broken movement by installing a similar replacement one.

http://www.royalsignals.org.uk/photos/watch.htm

don't know if this will help but it has a lot of information,Tom

Jim and Tom, Thank you for your answers, Jim, I think the watch is original, In fact while I was disassembling it for cleaning, I noticed that the number on the dial is the last four digits of the movement number. The watch is almost in "as new" condition...

Tom, I was aware of the site but it raises more question than it gives answers, except for mentioning that there were watches that did not have G.S.T.P. printed on the back but the serial number of the movement was used as ID, like mine.

Normally, watches of this kind use a low grade movement (9J), the use of a high grade 23J Vanguard in this watch is really puzzling. It must have been used for some special purpose.
Regards
Peter

A high grade watch in Royal service in the late 1930's would be expected to have specific code markings. It's interesting that this one has only a broad arrow and no General Service, Hydrographic Service, or RAF codes on the back.

Presuming the case is original issue with the watch, I would assume the large format broad arrow is Royal Navy.

Hello Peter,
to me that looks very much like an early British Royal Navy deck watch. I assume this because of the white dial with number and broad arrow on the dial, and the fact it was upgraded/adjusted to 6 pos. and not 5.
Jim Hester´s thoughts as to the movement

quote:

civilian watchmaker repaired a broken movement by installing a similar replacement one

doesn´t fit in, because of the ident numbering on the dial. Here are a few to compare with...







These were the early requirements...and I´m sure they were different during the wars!
Trial of Deck Watches of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, in 1890
Chronometer makers who may care to send watches to the trial must first obtain permission from the Hydrographic, Admiralty, Whitehall, S.W., to whom all requests for such permission must be sent not later than October 6.
The watches are to be deposited here between the hours of 10 and 1 on any day (excepting Sunday), during the week ending with October 20th, after which no watch can under any circumstances be received.
The rating this year commences on Saturday, October 25 and will be as follows:
Watch horizontal, dial up, in room for 6 weeks
Watch horizontal, dial up, in oven for 1 week
Watch vertical, pendant up, in oven for 4 days
Watch vertical, pendant right, in oven for 3 days
Watch vertical, pendant left, in oven for 3 days
Watch vertical, pendant up, in oven for 4 days
Watch horizontal, dial up, in oven for 1 week
Watch horizontal, dial up, in room for 6 weeks
The mean temperature in the oven will be from 80-85 degrees Fahrenheit.
The watches are to be in silver cases with crystal glass, and each must bear a distinguishing No. engraved on the plate of the movement, Preference will be given to keyless watches.
Each watch is to be labeled with its price, which is to include a mahogany box with ivory label, cleaning after trial and engraving the Government mark on the dial and plate of the movement, and the name of the maker, the No. of the watch, the letters C.W., and the Government mark on the ivory label of the box.
WHM Christie
Royal Observatory, Greenwich.

Navigational timekeepers were defined by the Hydrographic Survey in four categories thus.

H.S. 1. The master chronometer with detent escapement. These were tested at Greenwich before 1914 and after that time at the National Physical Laboratory at Kew.
H.S.2. The chronometer watch, formerly known as the deck watch had a lever movement, was adjusted for temperature and in five positions. These were also tested.
H.S.3. These were small watches, most 16 or 19 size with lever escapements, adjusted for temperature and in two positions. Most of the examples found have been of a much higher standard, adjusted in five or six positions.
H.S.4. These timekeepers were large or small cockpit instruments with different specifications.

Thank you Werner for your enlightening reply, it seems that my watch belongs to the same family as the ones you are showing. I thought my watch was kind of rare since I've never seen another one before...then again I discovered I hadn't seen too many like yours either! This is probably because my collecting is centered on American products with only a smattering of European's just for historical and technical reasons.

I must compliment you for what I've seen of your collection, thank you for posting the information and the outstanding pictures.

Regards
Peter

quote:

thank you for posting the information and the outstanding pictures.

You´re more than welcome Peter, thats what we are all here for, to help one another, if we can that is.

Regards
Werner

Hi Werner.

From what I can see in the photos, the movement of Peter's watch has no military markings on the movement, while yours do. Also, his has a plain broad arrow on the case back, while the one caseback I can see on yours has the expected Hydrographic Survey marking in addition to the broadarrow.

Am I missing something?

Best,
Jim

Hi Jim, the EMT has no military markings on the movement, but on the other hand it has the back marked. My Kendal and Dent has the movement marked, but no marking on the back...
I just found this on the net, but no further pictures of it... Waltham Deck

Peter, if you want to see more deck watches and the like, here´s just the place.. (scroll 3/4 way down, there is a Zenith deck watch, dial marked, no marking on the movement , like yours! )Marine

and if you want to look at the maritime watch collection of the National Maritime Museum London, UK. ... Maritime Museum

Hi Werner, thank you for the very informative links. I hope to be able to find more information about my watch in the future...it cannot be the only one!
Regards
Peter