that should read the Vancouver maritime museum

Tom
If you look under James location you can see he is serving in Iraq.

Tom Brunton IHC Member 1335

Posted December 18, 2009 09:08

And are you any relation to James P. Delgado, PhD, FRGS, RPA,former director of the Vancouver Museum,and now on The Sea Hunters T-V shipwreck dive show?

Hello Tom,

No, no relation that I am aware of although I have heard and read of him. I will take some pictures of the watch in the next few days and post them. It's a wonderful old GCT aircraft navigation watch made for the US Navy. Not many I can find had the Up/Down indicator.

Bet,

James

thank you James I'll be watching with interest ,and a Merry christmas to you all and to your families

Hallo friends,
I am a bit sceptic! The aircraft on HMS Arc Royal were operated by the Fleet Air Arm and not the Raf. So I am not sure wether they got material with AM marking???
See here my Hamilton AM 6B/60 'surface chronometer'.

. Gruesse/Regards/Salute Konrad Knirim
. konrad.knirim@t-online.de
PS: Have a look at my new book:
British Military Timepieces
. http://www.knirim.de

I must agree with Konrad. In the early 1940's, the Royal Navy used Hydrographic Service codes which started with H.S.

The engraving of the Ark Royal ship name on the side of the watch is not in keeping with known practices and regulations of the Royal Navy. Without giving too much information to potential forgers, I will only say that the engraving does not look right.

1932 U.S. Navy Waltham Mk. 1-A GCT Aircraft Navigational Watch

Tom,

Here are some recent photos of my Waltham. According to the caseback markings, it dates to 1932. I haven't checked the movement serial number against a database yet. Here are the photos:









Here it is in a group picture with some of my white dialed watches:



I mainly collect wrist watches but when I see a nice military pocket watch, I just can't help myself.

Hope you and everyone on this forum have a very merry Christmas and see you all in the new year!



James

hi James; thanks for the post,what a beauty of a watch,in fact ,what a beauty lot of watches,Merry Christmas to you,Tom

hi Greg and Konrad; This article ,as well as the following comment ,seem to show that the Air ministry was directly in control of and involved with carrier aircraft pre WW2 , and during as well, including being the ordering entity which commissioned construction and deployment of the famous Fairey Swordfish, best wishes,Tom

[1] SWORDFISH ORIGINS
* The Swordfish started out in 1933 as a private venture by Fairey Aviation Company Limited, in the form of the three-seat "Torpedo Spotter Reconnaissance I (TSR.I)" aircraft. The TSR.I was a biplane of frame-and-fabric construction, powered by a Bristol Pegasus IIM nine-cylinder air-cooled radial engine with 475 kW (635 HP). The TSR.I first flew in March 1933, and was put through a successful series of tests. Unfortunately, in September of that year, during spin tests the prototype failed to recover from a flat spin that took it into the ground. The pilot was able to bail out, if with some difficulty, but the aircraft was destroyed.

The TSR.I had seemed promising enough to justify further work, and when the British Air Ministry issued Specification "S.15/33", requesting a carrier-based torpedo bomber and scout aircraft, Fairey built a second prototype, the "TSR.II", which first flew on 17 April 1934. The new aircraft included an uprated Pegasus IIIM3 engine, providing 515 kW (690 HP); aerodynamic changes to improve spin handling; a longer fuselage; plus slightly swept back wings to compensate for the longer fuselage and shift in center of gravity.

Land trials went well, and in November 1934 the TSR.II was fitted with floats for sea trials, which culminated in catapult launch and recovery by the battle cruiser HMS REPULSE. The floats were then traded back to landing wheels for final evaluation. The Air Ministry was suitably impressed and placed an order for three pre-production machines.

The first of the three pre-production aircraft, with the type now named the "Swordfish", was flown on 31 December 1935. The last of the three was fitted with floats for service trials on water. The three prototypes were followed by a production order for 68 Swordfish "Mark I" aircraft.

By 1938, the Swordfish had replaced all other torpedo bombers in the service Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm (FAA). By the outbreak of World War II in September 1939, thirteen squadrons had been equipped with the "Stringbag", as it came to be known, with twelve of the squadrons at sea on the carriers HMS ARK ROYAL, COURAGEOUS, EAGLE, FURIOUS, and GLORIOUS. By the end of the war there would be thirteen more operational squadrons flying the Swordfish. The last operational squadron was established in June 1943, and was staffed by Dutch naval personnel fighting in exile. Twenty training squadrons were built up as well.



This gets complicated. The FAA, while flying off the RN's carriers and manned by naval personel, was very much under the control of the Air Ministry. Whilst the RN could set the numbers for their aircraft, they could (n't?) actually control what they got out of the Ministry, with the FAA being even more the poor sister than Coastal Command.

Additionally, the RAF trained the crews, in particular the pilots, and one of the things the RAF didn't do was teach their pilots to navigate, not even their bomber pilots. So the RN put in a naval officer who could navigate, which is why you got 2 seat fighters.

And to which I would suggest that gives additional credibility to my Waltham AM 6B/60 deck watch, which is side marked "HMS Ark Royal" being a completely correct and original issue watch ,carried on the very famous HMS Ark Royal before and during WW2 as I have always believed

Hello Tom, I enjoyed reading the military history you have found. It is interesting, but I'm sad to say that it does not change my opinion about your watch.

In WWII the Royal Navy used Royal Hydrographic Service codes on the watches and clocks they issued. And, please note that these codes were also used on watches issued to the "Fleet Air Arm." for example:

"H/|\S 4" = "fleet air arm instrument panel watch" I could be mistaken, but right off the top of my head, this would have been the code engraved upon your watch, if it had been issued by the Royal Navy.

The regulations from back then indicate that a Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm watch should have Hydrographic Service (HS)codes. But your watch has an Air Ministry (AM) code which we expect to find on equipment issued to the RAF.

In the "anything is possible" school of collecting, we could speculate that the RN might have used some RAF watches. However, that does not explain why the rim of your watch was engraved with the name of such a famous ship? The regulations at that time did not call for engraving the name of a ship onto timepieces, if such regulations existed we would expect to see some more examples, including a few watches with less famous ship's names on them.

I hate to say this (and I will not go into details on-line) but the engraving of the "Ark Royal" name on your watch does not look "right.” As a collector, if your watch was offered to me as a watch used on the Ark Royal I would not invest any money in such a story.

Best regards, and good luck with your future acquisitions.

I agree with every word you say Gregg, and I respect your knowledge as far superior to mine,with one all important caveat!! The Fairey Swordfish program, from the initial development sample order ,to sea trials on the carriers, and including the fleet supply order of production combat planes was all apparently undertaken by the Air Ministry,not the Fleet Air Arm ,and if the sea trials were conducted on HMS Ark Royal I would respectfully suggest that it is at least possible there might be only one so marked, and used on Ark Royal by Air Ministry staff during the sea trials .