WWT Shows CLICK TO: Join and Support Internet Horology Club 185™ IHC185™ Forums

• Check Out Our... •
• TWO Book Offer! •
Go
New Topic
Find-Or-Search
Notify
Tools
Reply to Post
  
Hamilton 21 "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
I have two of these with the serial numbers on the dial as follows. N2604 and 2E11189. What does the difference in number types signify?
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
posted
Could you please post some photos, of the watches and all of the markings on them?
 
Posts: 858 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
posted
Jim: Your request for "pictures of the watches" puzzles me. The numbers I listed are for Hamilton marine chronometers, not watches.

Jerry Freedman
 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
IHC Member 1335
Picture of Tom Brunton
posted
some collectors refer to chronometers as watches ,so it is pictures of your Hamilton model 21 marine watches/chronometers that he would like to see,Jerry, and I might add,me too!!!! Wink
 
Posts: 1746 | Location: Aylmer, Ontario in Canada | Registered: December 15, 2009
posted
Yes, some of us, including me, refer to them as watches. Thanks, Tom.
 
Posts: 858 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
posted
Hamilton 21 Box

 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
posted
Hamilton 21 Dial

 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
posted
Hamilton 21 Movement

 
Posts: 767 | Location: Los Osos, California USA | Registered: December 12, 2002
IHC Member 1335
Picture of Tom Brunton
posted
just a beauty,thanks Jerry Big Grin
 
Posts: 1746 | Location: Aylmer, Ontario in Canada | Registered: December 15, 2009
posted
N2604 refers to Navy s/n 2604. This is early enough to definitely have served in WWII. The second, 2E11189, indicates s/n 11189 and the 2E usually indicated a clock destined for the Maritime Administration (Liberty/Victory ships) but the dial usually also had an indication of the Maritime Adm on it. S/n 11189 would have been a late s/n that didn't see WWII service and may have been sold off to a jeweler or some organization other than military.
 
Posts: 292 | Location: Vancouver, Washington, USA | Registered: May 19, 2005
posted
Need to correct my previous post. The 2E refers to one of 3 versions of the Model 21. 2E is for the 12 hour silver dialed version which was used by the Navy, Army and Maritime Commission for the majority of the Model 21's issued. The 3E was for a black dialed version with the wind indicator going the opposite direction of the 2E if my memory serves. The 4E was for a "complicated" version with 4 smaller dials incorporated onto the mail dial. The last two, 3E and especially the 4E, are much rarer.

The serial numbers following the 2E, 3E or 4E are the actual serial numbers of the clock. On 2E's issued to the Navy there is a circled N followed by the serial number on the dial face and a 2E followed by the serial number on the watch plate. The Maritime Commission issued clocks will indicate so on the dial along with a 2E s/n on the dial and a 2E s/n on the watch plate.
 
Posts: 292 | Location: Vancouver, Washington, USA | Registered: May 19, 2005
posted
Greetings,

Actually the 3E series refers to the U.S. Army Air Force chronometers which did indeed have the black dial and a slightly different movement train that resulted in a 24 dial arrangement. The wind indicator does not go backwards on these.

The 3E series were also known as the Model 121, while the 4E series were known as the Model 221 and had the 4 orbit dials.

Here is a picture of my Model 121 (3E017). I'll post my Model 221 when it arrives.

Hamilton 121
 
Posts: 102 | Location: Houston, Texas in the USA | Registered: September 26, 2009
IHC Member 1335
Picture of Tom Brunton
posted
and another beauty Eek
 
Posts: 1746 | Location: Aylmer, Ontario in Canada | Registered: December 15, 2009
posted
Michael - as I indicated I was basing my last post on memory. It has been a while since I read one of Marvin Whitney's books so I went back to reread the section on Hamilton Ship's Chronometers. I'll quote what he says about the Model 121:

"The 24-hour or Military Time type was designed especially for the Air Force and was known as their Model 121. Distinguishing features about the model were: 1) black dial with white hands and numerals; 2)the winding indicator was reversed; hence, the indicating hand traversed its orbit counterclockwise; and 3) the movement number preceded the prefix "3E." quoted from page 172 of Military Timepieces by Marvin E. Whitney.

So my memory served me somewhat better than I usually expect it to these days. Maybe Marvin Whitney completely missed the boat (or in this case the plane)? I love a good mystery. I've never seen a 3E or 4E in person so I have relied on Whitney all these years.

In any event you've got 1 of 42 Model 121's made, 1 of only 20 model 121's delivered to the Air Force and on top of that, a possibly unique example?
 
Posts: 292 | Location: Vancouver, Washington, USA | Registered: May 19, 2005
posted
Michael,

I'm sure she is not a unique example. I actually have the full history on her from the very short time she was in the service and there is nothing in there that indicates anything other than stock and nothing to indicate unique from the government contract. Although the Whitney book is an absolute great reference, there are some things which are not spot on, where unfortunately this is one of them.

Not to discount the wealth of knowledge and experience of the author, but there is documentation at the PA library which suggests otherwise to the notion that they wind indicator works in reverse, and combined with actual hands on with this one and the others in the collection I can attest that indeed it works the same, the only difference are a couple of wheels that gear down the hours hand to rotate once every 24 hours. You can also look at the pictures of the three which are still in the set, they all appear as the one above. You wind it, the indicator goes to zero and lets you know how many hours you've run, where it goes clockwise.

Mystery? No, just a juggling of what is there. I don't fault him, he's seen thousands of these things, I can only presume that singling out 42 might be difficult to get all the details just as they are. What is interesting about all of this, at least in my mind, is that the parts of the 121 are indeed interchangeable with the normal 21s with the noted exception of the additional wheels mentioned and of course the dial. Everything else is the same.

Michael
 
Posts: 102 | Location: Houston, Texas in the USA | Registered: September 26, 2009
posted
Michael, on the website for the Military Watch Museum, there are clear pictures of both the 12 hour and 24 hour dial versions. In fact the dial for the up/down indicator is flipped or reversed.

http://www.militarywatchmuseum.com/
 
Posts: 292 | Location: Vancouver, Washington, USA | Registered: May 19, 2005
posted
Michael,

I've seen this picture before, but I'm not sure what the serial number is on this, however, this conflicts with pictures of 3E007, 3E008, 3E009, and mine 3E017, which don't have the reversed wind indicator.

3E007-009 can be seen in the following link:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...0103944/m/6051012391

I should also mention, that I did blow the Hamilton 24 Hour chest on the website you pointed out and it appears that the three chronometers in there follow the same configuration as 07, 08, 009, & 017.

As for the one you point out, it is a mystery to me, the only one that I see on the records as being marked as US Army is 3E032 and getting pictures of the last ones sold the to the various interments companies has been an unfruitful search.

Michael.
 
Posts: 102 | Location: Houston, Texas in the USA | Registered: September 26, 2009
IHC Member 1335
Picture of Tom Brunton
posted
my just acquired US Maritime Commission Hamilton Model 21 serial # 2E10600

 
Posts: 1746 | Location: Aylmer, Ontario in Canada | Registered: December 15, 2009
  Powered by Social Strata  
 


©2002-2021 Internet Horology Club 185™ - Lindell V. Riddle President - All Rights Reserved Worldwide

Internet Horology Club 185™ is the "Family-Friendly" place for Watch and Clock Collectors