Hello Folks,
My first foray onto the forum having only recently subscribed, hoping someone can point me in the right direction for information.
I have a pair of Vintage Military wristwatches, 1x Record and 1x Lemania, both almost identical.(fortunately almost 'Mint' condition too).
Can anyone advise where I may find information to help decode the marks on the case backs please?
I've tried 'googling' for info but I'd be older than Adam before I got through all the 'hits'! -It did lead me to you folks though which has to be good.
Ok. My Watches!
The Lemania is stamped - Q6851 over the broad arrow, and 6208 over 6108 under the central 'WWW' There is a small disc ground out of the surface in front of the '6208' number which may have been deliberate to remove some other stamping.
The 'Record' is stamped with the Broad arrow Central on the case back, with L30392 over 548239.
The Record is my favourite watch but then it's the only one I got around to fitting a strap and wearing! I don't know if this watch has any military aviation links, but it's proven so relliable through a couple of thousand hours of aviating, and been so accurate, I've actually ditched my stop watch.
Any other 'Record' fans out there?
Kind regards to all,
John Woolsey.

Hello, John, it's a pleasure to have you drop in.

The "W.W.W." mark on your Lemania stands or "Wrist Watch Waterproof" This marking was used on British contract wristwatches from about 1943 to 1958. It's hard to say what might have been milled off the case. It may have had an Air Ministry code or even a Fleet Air Arm pilot watch code? We will never know.

Record is a good brand. But the markings are obscure. Most British wrist watches of WWII have branch of service markings, to indicate if it was issued by the Navy, RAF, or the Royal Army. The numbers on your Record do not appear to be post-war NATO stock numbers,either. My best guess is that you have a early WWII watch issued by the Royal Army. There are some other possibilities, for example, if there is a letter "I" under the broad arrow, then you would have a watch issued by British forces in India, or issue by India after 1948.

If possible, it would be fun to have a look at your watches. It sounds like you have done rather well for yourself so far!

Best regards,

Greg

Hello Greg, Many thanks for the welcome, much appreciated.

I must confess to the occasional 'mental' 'pinch on the arm' whenever I pick those watches up and wear them. I have 'found' many other real 'Gems' since, but these are sort of special to me.

I bought the watches years ago, at a major antiques fair in Newark UK when I was hunting for watches to practice on. When I got them stripped down and cleaned, the cases just gleamed, hardly any marks at all, all the similar watches on the web really are just 'Tat' by comparison.

The dials are crisp, the luminous paint is still green and, still intact in the hands. The lumi' spots on the Record are slightly 'off' on a few numerals but you have to look close. No visible 'burn marks' on the dials either, but then being black not easy to see, or perhaps the paint is immune.

The Record is my real pride and joy though and I'm Very attached to it now, as it's the first 'Real' watch I actually managed to overhaul without mangling the beast or at best mauling something grievously(usually the hairspring')!
I'll sort out some photo's for you.
Kind regards
John

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the theories put forward re- the Record. There are no other marks on the case backs of either the Record or the Lemania, the latter doesn't even have any makers marks on the movement.
They were very likely issued to 'ground crew' rather than any aircrew I think, as aircrews mostly used chrono's, but I'll stand corrected on that if anyone knows for sure.
I did find some reference to dating these watches via the style of hands, dials & cases, which was a web based article. Unfortunately I've got through a few hard drives since and can't find the article. I'll keep looking though and post if i find it.

I've uploaded a couple of shots of the Lemania - dial and movement, hope they come out ok as I had to 'reduce' them a tad. It's a tad grubby as its just been sat in my storage boxes for years, untouched. I cleaned the case and renewed the crystal a few years ago, but still have to clean and service the movement again.
Will post pic's of the Record shortly (have actually just posted a pic' of me wearing it on the WW forum - 'Which watch are you wearing today')!
Regards to All.
John Woolsey

A Scan of the Military Lemania watch movement.
Needs the gilding brightening.
Regards
John Woolsey

A scan of the Military Lemania case back.
It's seen a bit of abuse in it's life, which fortunately wasn't meted out on the actual case. Judging by marks on the edges, someone has actually attempted to pry the back off with a case knife - maybe the milling mark is their attempt to drill their way in??? There are acid stains or some such marks just visible also, and the tool depressions are a little chewed. Hopefully they will clean up ok.

If interested, I also have a few other Military watches, such as an Omega Tank, Rolex stopwatch, Cyma PW's and WW1 era WW's. All in dire need of TLC.
Regards to All.
John Woolsey

Thanks, John.

An extra nice "WWW" Army watch. Highly collectable. Often the cases are shot, this one has plenty of life in it.

As for what the RAF pilots had in WWII. Most of them had time only hack wrist watches. RAF and fleet air arm wrist chornographs were sometimes issued, but are uncommon.

Watches issued to pilots of the RAF in WWII will have an Air Ministry code on the back which starts with "6B/" followed by code numbers. Most RAF wristwatches were Swiss, but some American made A-11 Waltham and Bulova pilots watches were also issued by the RAF - all of which had 6B/123 markings on the back. An advantage to collecting these, such as the Waltham, is that parts are not too hard to come by.

Best regards,

Greg

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the comments, hopefully I'll get the Lemania sorted out soon. Think I'm already 'there' getting fond of watches with you guys anyway. I've already commandeered a bedroom, which is now set up as my workshop/office to house all my stuff! SWMBO didn't like it too much, but a couple of vintage gold Girard Perregaux's soothed the ripples some!

I've posted a couple of scans of the Record for you, not too good unforunately as I haven't cracked the reduction for the site yet. I clipped the crystal on the house wall too unfortunately, hence the scar, so the watch is now 'in dock' for maintainance. Gave me an excuse to take the back off for the scan.

I'll post some more military watches too if you wish, got about half a dozen here I'd appreciate comments upon. One is a real 'Groaner' though, you'll se what I mean when it appears, probably hear you in the UK!
Best Regards
John

A Scan of the Record Movement, well due for a clean!
Best regards
John

Another fine mil-watch, can we see the markings on the back?

A spare room for your watches should not be an issue. Now my wife has to contend with watches, tools to fix watches, militria, guns, machine lathe, etc, etc. She is a good sport - as long as she gets her way as to every thing else.

We would love to see your other miltary watches and clocks on this forum.

I give you my word, we will not groan about your watches. A worn down military watch has battle scars and character, for which a snappy salute is more in order. Mint condition gold repeaters need apply (unless inscribed to a military person, that is.)

Best regards,

Greg

Oh Dear Greg, I fear you may be in real trouble giving your word re- none of you groaning about this one! Even I did, and I'd no idea of the real significance of the maker ...... we'll have to wait and see
Your wife lets you keep Guns in the House! yeesh, I can't even keep my plating tank in my workshop! think the constituents of the fluids has a bearing on that though!
I'll drip-feed you the watches in due course, all photo's at the ready.
What image size is best favoured by the webmaster? I've been cropping and reducing to around 100Kb on 640/480 images.
Record Case-Back for your perusal!
Best regards
John.

Thanks for the picture of the back of your WWW watch back. Do you have any A.T.P. wristwatches?

You have a plating tank? Interesting, I have not done that yet. What do you do with it? Any watch cases or parts? (I suppose if the tank was too stinky, of chemicals, my wife would have a word or two with me as well).

Best regards,

Greg

Hi Greg,
I don't think I have any ATP watches, but I'm assuming those are the Army predecesors to the WWW type? Not sure how they're marked though.

I haven't actually done any plating with the tank as yet, as I've nowhere safe to use it at the moment.
I had it built around 5 years ago and bought all the fluids etc, which are concentrations containing the precious metals and still sealed and locked away. The tank is quite compact, and has 3x 1 litre containers for different processes, plus the volt/amp meters, electrodes and regulators etc, quite neat!
The tank also powers a small plating pen I bought at the same time, and I have used that a few times to restore dials, battons and hands. The effect is quite awsome.
I have to use a binocular microscope with it nowadays though and it's very slow tedious work to do accurately. If you're the slightest careless, the fluid will wick straight off the battons or numerals onto the dial plate and have to start again.(I'm talking about silver dials with gold filligree work, numerals etc mostly).
The fluid for the pen plater costs a fortune, as the precious metal salts it contains is a very high concentration, and a 20 Ml bottle of 22Ct gold cost me around £40GBP - thankfully, it goes a long way and will do more dials than i'll live to restore.!
Not sure how 'stinky' the tank itself would actually be in use and to be honest, I won't be going within breathing distance of it without it having the smoke hood and extractor in operation and set up outside, you Really wouldn't want to sniff the stuff, even by accident!
We moved house a couple of years ago, so all my workshop plans were well scuppered. I've yet to build an extension to my garage to house all the machinery and clock ceaning kit so I can use it and when i do, the tank will have a purpose built 'den' all on its own, then I can really get to grips with my stuff.

Best regards
John

Hi John,

The ATP wrist watches were marked "A.T.P." for Army Time Piece, they were used in WWII and I think they preceded the W.W.W. wrist watches in U.K. service. ATP watches were not waterproof.

The plating pen sounds interesting. One day, I'd like to get into that. Like yourself, I recently moved and my various tools are still packed away. A sad state for them to be in.

Best regards,

Greg

Hi Greg,

I've had a quick look through my stuff but can't see anything with ATP stamped or engraved.
The military I have found so far, are PW's with GSTP or GS/TP and the Record/Lemania WWW watches. Will keep looking though as I've quite a few watches not sorted through yet.

Pen plating kit is quite affordable now and not too difficult to do, tedious, but Very satisfying. It makes a huge difference to the appearance of a watch when a dial is spruced up.

I'm not sure how collectors would view such restoration on watches, but then I do it on my stuff for my own enjoyment and in keeping with how the original article would have looked when first produced.
I do one and post the results - before and after shots!
The pen can be used purely for cleaning dials too as well as replating.

I'm with you on the tooling being packed away, very limiting and frustrating too. Hopefully by this Autumn, I'll be 'up and running' again, or at least very close.

Best regards
John

According to Ziggy, the ATP stands for Army Time Piece and was used from 1939 to 1945 while the WWW stands for Wrist Watch, Waterproof and was used on wrist watches purchased under military contracts between c.1943 and 1958.

Most W.W.W. marked wrist watches are post war. The way to tell if you have a watch that was purchased by the Air Ministry for issuing to someone in the RAF is to look at the model number prefix. The model number comes before the serial number. If you see 6B/ or 14.A/ then it is an Air Ministry timepiece. The model numbers that follow the stroke indicate the type and purpose of the watch. These also would normally have an A.M. for Air Ministry on them, which combined with the remaining numbers on the Lemania not fitting Air Ministry watch type numbers lead me to say that I would not think that the removed marking would likely have been a 6B/.

If the type marking starts with an H, which stands for Hydrographic Service, it would be a Navy timepiece.

If it has neither, such as the Lemania and Record examples shown, it would be an Army timepiece.

If you do not already have it, I recommend that you pick up a copy of Ziggy's book - "A Concise Guide to Military Timepieces, 1880 - 1990" by Z.M. Wesolowski. It focuses mainly on British timepieces and while it is not an encyclopedia it is an excellent book with a lot of information. I'm sure your local library could find a copy through interlibrary loan if they do not have it, or more simply you could just buy one. On our side of the pond it can be found for around $29 at one of the big online bookstores which in my opinion is a good investment of a small amount of money.

Jim, Many thanks for the information on the watches and especially the tip regarding the book. I've found copies on amazon which are well priced, so have organised one.

In truth I'd always assumed that the watches were ex Army, as RAF watches do seem to be 'very thin on the ground', and I ain't That lucky I'd also assumed RAF issues would have been chronos, but seems not to be the case.
I was surprised though to find no manufacturers markings on the Lemania movement.

Shame about the milling mark on the case back though, as it does appear to be quite a deliberate localised action to remove something.
C'est la Vie!

Best regards
John

There wasn't much point in the Air Ministry issuing chronograph wristwatches back then. It was much cheaper to simply issue an ordinary wristwatch plus a stopwatch. There are a few Air Ministry issued chronograph wristwatches around, but they just didn't spend the money to buy very many. By comparison, I can't think of a single example where the U.S. counterpart has ever issued a chronograph wristwatch - though I'm sure Greg or someone might be able to think of perhaps one example.

In addition, flying personnel tended to rely much more on the clocks in their panels - some of which were chronometers, and larger aircraft often also had a large "pocket watch style" chronometer they carried on board in a wooden box - kind of like they had on ships. I think the most complicated aircraft clock of the war was one the U.S. had with four subsidiary dials in addition to the large central one. Those were made by both Hamilton and Elgin.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the comments, I'm assuming the situation you're recounting is for the U.S Military? I've no idea what it was for the UK Military services, probably similar.
I hope the panel clocks were more reliable in those days than the clocks are in today's aircraft!
The 5x dial clock sounds an interesting specimen!
Best regards
John

For the wrist watch plus stop watch plus instrument panel clock system I was referring to both the U.S. and U.K. air services. For the pocket watch style chronometer in a box I was referring the the U.S. If you keep your eye on Ebay and word search Hamilton + aircraft + chronometer or clock you can usually find one or two of the 5 dial models for auction most weeks. They tend to go for full prices, though, if they are in top condition. The model number for these are H-37500 or the Hamilton model or E-37500 for the Elgin model.

One listed right now too in the USA on Ebay.com, very neat piece of kit.
There's also a 24Hr panel clock listed too on Ebay UK.
Best regards
John

During WW II, the RAF had a two dial chronograph that is usually called a "Time of Trip" clock that was used mainly on their large aircraft. It has a subsidiary dial under the 12 with hour and minute hand. I believe these were made by both Jaeger LeCoultre and Smiths, but I am not positive and there could be other makers. They were also made after the war. Later, as the RAF sold them off on the surplus market, they seem to have been very popular purchases by the cross country road rally enthusiasts. These also come up on Ebay all the time - though mainly on Ebay-UK - and they also tend to bring rather full prices for ones in nice condition.