I seem to remember a thread a little while back abour chronometers from Russia. There is a Lange and Sohne on eBay at the moment.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1808...id=p3984.m1436.l2649
What is interesting is the sequence of numbers illustrated on the various sections of the chronometer. All are numbered 5105 except the base blate which is numbered 5150 and on which there is a Swastika engraved around the winding hole. All very strange I think!!!

they are doctoring up Poljot or Kirova chronometers to be something "rarer" or more valuable ,i.e. Lange & Sohne,Glashutte!! If it was a genuine Lange Kriegsmarine chronometer it would have been sold instantly LOL

Erratum. I should of course have said the German eagle motif, obviously not a swastika.

I agree that this is more than suspicious. There is no way the Reich would have placed the eagle and swastika emblem there in such a way as to completely eliminate the swastika. Also, the seller is in Russia which is clue number 2; they only accept payment by Moneybookers, bank transfer, or Western Union which means you cannot get your money back is clue number 3; and clue number 4 is they want $90 to ship it to you which is a big profit on shipping. Taken all together this comes up with 'Warning Will Robinson'.

I'm not so sure that it is a fake. We must remember that the Kirova/Poljot chronometer designs were direct copies of ALS chronometers, down to the machinery used to manufacture them.

The incorrect number on the tub is my main concern point on this. Don't know what to think of this, other than it is a mistake, as the numbers all seem to be punched individually based upon their spacing, so a mistake is possible. I'll have to check mine to see if all the serial numbers have been stamped like shown on this example. It seems to have too many serial numbers stamped, I don't recall the balance cock having a serial number stamped. I'll check when I get back into town and have time for a "chronometer play date".

The box is correct for the period, the movement is correct, there are slight differences between the ALS and Kirova/Poljot which are present.

The swastika was there at one point, it has been drilled out of the dust plate (for lack of a better term) just leaving the eagle motif, most likely for export reasons (it could have been removed, installed upside down and sent for the markings never to be seen). The wind hole in the dust plate is shown at the bottom. I would be hard pressed to believe that a fake was made with the eagle motif but the swastika missing.

I don't trust anything that comes out of Russia for being "quality", the shipping is indeed high, but for that cost, it better be EMS. What is probably more problematic for me on this thing is in addition to the goofed up serial number, there appears to be some heat damage to one of the plates, which leads me to believe that someone "fixed" it so that it would tick.

It has some problems, but I wouldn't necessarily write it off as a fake. Might take another 1K to get it to a suitable condition, can only imagine what the pivots look like in this thing and if the detent has been damaged or not, sometimes they get heated too much to remove crinkles and it has to be remade.

The non-working Hamiltons that just sold would have been a better bet than this thing. Too many unknowns.

I doubt that the "high" shipping charge is a warning signal. Just about the only thing I know about chronometers is that they are expensive to ship. I sold my only chronometer, a Hamilton 21, to another IHC 185 member a few months ago. UPS charged around $120 for packing and ground shipping the chronometer from Pasadena, California to British Columbia, Canada.

I don't know how much of the charge was for packing, but the Model 21 manual was loaded with warnings about how fragile these chronometers are, and specified that they be shipped triple boxed. It would have been difficult for me to pack this item for shipping as well as UPS did. Even so, I worried for a whole week that the chronometer would be damaged. To my great relief, it arrived undamaged.

So, a $90 charge to ship a chronometer from Russia to the U.S. doesn't seem high to me, nor likely to generate a "big profit."

The Lange & Söhne is a fake. I´m not willing to prove my point here online, for obvious reasons.
If they didn´t make silly small mistakes, as they do, it would be nigh on impossible to recognise them a such. One of the small mistakes from the past has already been rectified, they used to use a white palladium spiral spring (as in the Poljots) instead of the blued spring, as used from the original ones from Germany!
The serial No. plate was done by laser, that´s why it has "blueing" around the numbers.

These fakes are so good, even professionals are fooled now and again, look at this piece marked Vacheron & Constantin where even the seller wrote "Although signed for the Swiss manufacturer this is a fairly standard continental marine chronometer and was almost certainly not made by Vacheron & Constantin."
http://www.antique-watch.com/des/c654.html

This Chronometer came from the same forge, if you´ll pardon the pun!

Regards

Werner,

there is no doubt that the V&C is a fake, you can tell by the finish pattern being the same as a Kirova/Poljot with the normal location of the Kirova/Poljot mark being marked over with the V&C mark. To top it off, it is in a Hamilton box.....

I'm not clear on your message about the ALS, I don't know what the obvious reasons might be. The spring is blued, not the white palladium spring. What are the other incorrect marks in your opinion? I'm concerned about the over abundance of serial numbers and the mistake on the tub. Please elaborate for all of us to learn why.

The ALS markings on the movement appear to be original as they would have had to remove a lot of material to get the Kirova/Poljot stamps out, as well as the finishing pattern. If they had done a "hack" job, it would have looked like the V&C obvious fake.

quote:

The spring is blued, not the white palladium spring.

They learned...

quote:

If they had done a "hack" job, it would have...

They don´t do "hack jobs", these people are the best in the fakers world!

Werner,

if you'd like to take this conversation off line, please contact me at the email address in my profile, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on what pinpoints your thoughts as to this being a fake, what should we be looking for that has tipped your balance on this?

Werner, Michael, we are talking words and maybe you can clarify this a little more with a set of comparative pictures I put togethewr with My PolJot and the "Other" Chronometer recently sold on eBay. I see slight differentces in the wooden case details and fitment . . .

The Dial Arabic font, Hands, Crystal and Bezel are identical . . .

The movements have slightly different damaskeening, but take the cork off the winding shaft and I see no difference . . .

Michael, Dave, I don´t wish to appear rude, I´ve sent you both a couple of mails to explain the difference!

I have recently seen a J Sewell chronometer offered for sale. The dial looked OK, but the movement was Russian. I wrote to the seller and he replied that the movement might be Russian. He seemed to be pretending not to know. It appears someone is making these things up.

hi Jerry ; Yes I saw that one too , and pointed it out to Werner. The giveaway was the "First Moscow Watch Factory " trademark on one plate of the one I saw !!! Stupid of them rather than sly though, to leave the Russian trademark on the chronometer The funny thing is that in my humble opinion the Poljot and Kirova chronometers and deck watches are the equal of the very best units manufactured elsewhere and they are just beautiful timepieces

Interesting and informative topic; a good contiuation of the earlier thread. Do chronometers from the Ukraine also have a history of being faked? For instance, what is the group’s opinion of the Nardin currently listed on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120868...id=p3984.m1423.l2649

It’s too pricey for me, but I still try to carefully study even those I can’t afford.

Thinking back over the previous posts, I don't think we should take too much notice over chronometers which originally would have had blued helical springs. There must have been hundreds that would have been sent for routine cleaning and rating and they may well have been replaced with the more 'up to date' and accurate palladium springs. Just a thought.

Looks like this chronometer is back on eBay, although this time, the seller does not show the mismatched tub number and the swastika is now present on the bottom, whereas in the last version of this, the swastika was missing via a drilled hole.

After some offline correspondence, I'm in full agreement with Werner that that this is in fact a fake and should be avoided if you are looking for an original.