All,

Can someone give me a quick answer to a question please?

I've been asked if it's possible to date GSTP watches from their serial numbers etc.
I don't believe it is except for the period during which the GS/TP & GSTP engraved watches were issued.

Does anyone know the actual dates that use of these marks began and ended please?
I'm also assuming that watches bearing the'S' struck through the broad arrow, probably coincided with the end of use of the GSTP marks.

Apologies in advance if this is covered in another thread and I've missed it!

Best regards

John

As far as I know, for GSTP pocket watches it's not possible to pin-down the year, other than WWII generally(1939-1945). Given that the TP stands for "Trade Patern", these watches were a stop-gap to fill an emergency need for watches during WWII. Rather than spending time and money for watches which exactly fit the GS MK II patern.

As for the "S" found on some of these watches, I have assumed it stands for "sold out of service." Such as, when a watch was sold to the man it was issued to. But that's only an educated guess, based upon marking practices for other types of equipment.

Best regards,
Greg

Thanks for the reply Greg, much appreciated.
Have you any idea what the spec differences were between GSTP and GS MKII?
I'm asuming from what you wrote that standards were perhaps more relaxed for the GSTP rating

I've had a look through Ziggy's book but not a lot of info there on mil spec's.

Best regards

John

John, I have never seen the specs for these two types of watches. It is often a confusing group, and the specs might answer some questions about them.

Most of the GSTP watches have cheaper cases than the MK II. Most GSTP's have snap-back plated brass cases instead of the screw backs of the MK II.

Generally, the GSTP and GS MK II have 15 jewel movements, except for the Elgin's. Elgins may appear with either GSTP or GS MK II markings in screw-back cases.

Specs for the dials of GSTP (General Service Trade Pattern) watches appear to have been rather relaxed. While the MK II watches always have black dials, the GS/TP may be found with either white or black dials. A few have a black dial with a white off set seconds bit, a rather attractive combination.

Best regards,
Greg

Thanks for your opinions on these watches Greg, certainly helps.

From the limited experience I have with these watches, I would agree with all you wrote, except ......... I have a GS MKII watch here, which has an un-named movement and dial, the dial is white enamel but with the typical yellow/brown lume on the numerals, plus it has lume hollow fill Cathedral style hands.
I don't believe it's a marriage as there are no obvious case screw marks or evidence of a movement swap.
The movement it has to be said, is in beautifully clean running condition and looks a cut above average for a Swiss 15J movement of that era (maybe because it's so clean?).

The only markings on it are the Cal? of KF260 !
Ring any bells for you?

I'll organise some pic's of it.

John

Hummmm A white dial on a G.S. MK II? Well, why not, it IS a confounding catagory. This one will be the first MK II with a white dial I have seen (are there others - anyone?). The pictures will be interesting and appriciated.

Best regards,

Greg

Your wish is my command ............

This is actually the watch I intended to break for the case to fix the Rolex bezel (fits too), as there are issues with the movement which I'd forgotten about.
Mainly, No stem or Crown, horrible crunching sounds in the winding mechanism and the seconds hand pinion has been snapped off!.

It will run if light pressure is applied to the centre wheel, but if the watch is rocked, the balance will lock as if overbanked - but doesn't actually overbank - something awry on the roller or pallets I think.

The watch was bought as spares intentionally, but for now it's got a stay of execution, shame to part out a GS MKII if it can be saved.

However - as you know yourself, vintage Swiss watches needing awkward bits are more grief than they're worth.

I actually took a chance on the watch as the seller couldn't get the back off it - hoped it might have something nice as a movement, but, you win some lose some - in this case I got what was expected.

I had to use a metal bar superglued to the caseback to remove it eventually, hence the scratches which need polishing out.
Some wag also had a go with a case knife at some point trying to get it off!!!!

Pic's appended.

Best regards

John

No evidence of extra case screws, so totally original!

John

Close up of movement

John

GS MKII - A58466 Below Broad Arrow.
My Rolex is GS MKII - A20498

Would be interesting to compile a database of GS serials and see how close the numbers get and with which brands!

John

The condequences of attempts to pry a screw back of a watch - seems they got the general area right for a snap on type though!

I used plain light and no flash hence the dark pic - too much glare otherwise!

John

John

Nice pics, John. Thank you.

I must agree, it would be a good idea to start a data base of MK II and GSTP watches.

Regarding the above watch, the movement looks to be of higher quality than most.

By the way, how is the dial held on?

Best regards,
Greg

I decided to delve a bit deeper into the watch this morning and find out a little more about it.

Having stripped the movement, found it is actually in great shape (if you discount a broken mainspring, seconds pivot and missing stem/crown ect), should be a fairly easy fix.
The crunch on the winding gear was nothing more than a broken mainspring and the winding wheel rubbing over the ratchet wheel - due to the setting lever being in hands setting postion, allowing the ratchet wheel to tilt over.

Your first impression of the movement was the same as mine Greg, in that it appeared a cut above average, which I put down to it being so clean.

That is, until I found a capital 'H' stamped into the dial plate, which made me immediately think 'Helvetia' (General Watch Co).
Took a look in my Bestfit books and found that Helvetia do use the 'H', but enclose the initial in an octagon - this letter was open.

Browsing for a 'KF' trademark on a hunch, (movement is Cal KF260), found that the manufacturer 'Kurth' used the trademark initials 'KF' in a box and, that a Cal KF260 movement was listed by them - Bingo!.
Going to the movement ID page for that Cal, the setting levers were an exact match to this watch which confirmed it.

So, looks like either a Kurth KF260 ebauche supplied to Helvetia, or a Helvetia (General) ebauche supplied to Kurth, not sure which is most probable.

Looks like a much better watch than I first suspected.

BTW Kurth is also Certina.

Nearly forgot, the dial is held by two screws into the side of the dial plate!

Best regards

John