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The British G.S.T.P. pocket watches "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
Greg: yes, not gold-filled but rather highly polished brass. Many of the GSTP cases were made of nickel-plated brass and, if the nickel wears off, these are often polished up to make them attractive items for resale.

By the way, the watch in the group shot that just has GSTP and no issue number on it is a Smiths, the only GSTP to be made in England rather than Switzerland. Unlike the USA (or Germany, to a large extent), the U.K. did not rely on an indigenous industry to produce its military watches during WW2. It seems, however, that HM Government made various attempts to cajole Smiths into making wrist and pocket watches in its London and Cheltenham plants for the British military but that Smiths were happier to focus on cockpit clocks, stop watches, and ancillary items like fuse timers. Nevertheless, the GSTP pocket watch (which was also issued to the RAF as a 6E/50) was produced and is starting to be collected now that it is recognised. A lesser known fact is that Smiths was contracted to produce the mythical 'Mark X Spitfire pilot's watch' (a term often used wishfully to describe the IWC WWW watch). Small numbers had already been issued as a 6B/159 in 1942, despite it not meeting the 6B/159 spec because remarkably it had a sub-seconds dial configuration, but the Mark X was to be designated as the 6B/300. There is no evidence of this contract being fulfilled - Smiths did not get into production line manufacturing of wristwatches until after WW2 - but unissued examples do turn up if you know what to look for. (The true Mark X actually looks like a LeCoultre 6B/159 with sub-seconds configuration, although the link between JLC and Smiths is a hoary myth now disparaged). Credit for finally solving the Mark X mystery goes to Ken Gordon, who sometimes posts here.

Hope this is of interest.

Regards,

Martin

P.S. I realise, suddenly but belatedly, that I have answered the query raised in post #4 by Naoki Imaizumi, namely: why did the British not produce their own watch movements for military issue during WW2? Even with some knowledge of the facts, it's still slightly baffling!
 
Posts: 37 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: September 17, 2010
posted
Many thanks for adding the photos, Richard: a nice Smiths you have there. I conjectured about this type being a Smiths because of the distinctive dial fixing, crown and dual screw fixing of the balance assembly, all of which pointed to Smiths (and are present in the very common Smiths 6B/221 stopwatch of 1941 and 1943 issue). This was confirmed on another forum by a kind member who identified the movement as a 19 ligne 15 jewel Smiths cal 600. There are also strong family resemblances to other Smiths movements and, anyway, the Made in England stamping would have left few other candidates given the sad state of the British watch making industry at the time. Interesting watch: thanks for sharing.
Regards,
Martin
P.S. The typical lack of issue numbers on the Smiths GSTP marks this type out as being different to the Swiss items. Perhaps they were considered less valuable and didn't warrant being tracked? It is said that the Smiths were given to the common soldier, while officers had a swankier piece but that might be a myth.
 
Posts: 37 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: September 17, 2010
posted
Richard,

I'm not aware of any such GF cases being used or requested for issue: on the other hand, silver cases were used for deck watches but that may have been warranted by sea-going conditions?

From the photos I thought I could see traces of the nickel plate on the inner rim - or is it nickel showing through brass ?! Whatever, it's a nice watch.

I think Greg answered the question that I saw. The second tail is odd: perhaps the engraver starting one character then changed his mind? The issue numbers for GSTPs by the way are not fully understood. They seem to have been applied in groups according to which watches were available each time. They sometimes group according to a small pool of manufacturers (Q is often seen also used for Tissots for instance) but that may simply reflect how watches became available in batches.

I can't comment on the KM Alpina I'm afraid as I don't collect Axis watches - no great conscious prejudice at work I think, I just don't seem to collect them.

Regards,

Martin
 
Posts: 37 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: September 17, 2010
posted
I do not know what the strange mouse with a tail character is supposed to represent, but my guess is that it could be just a situation where the graver was accidentally dragged a bit before getting into the correct position to form the zero. I notice that the zero is perfectly spaced and the 'tail' encroaches into the space that would otherwise be there between the one and the eight. Until someone comes up with something that makes more sense, I would go with Occam's razor and say that sloppy workmanship is the only thing that makes sense to me since the resulting figure does not make any sense in terms of it being some kind of letter or number or symbol.
 
Posts: 858 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

Richard,

Extremely large images cannot be viewed by those with slower internet connections or smaller screens. Due to those considerations and to avoid overloading storage capacity our system is set up to not accept poster size images.

>> Proper size: 640 X 480 Pixels
>> Resolution: 72 Pixels/Inch



Click here: How to Photograph Your Watches and Clocks

In there you will find information about sizing your images and posting them on our site.


Click these other links:


HELP IN POSTING IMAGES FOR HOSTING ON OUR IHC185 DISCUSSION SITE


PICASA - EXCELLENT FREE IMAGE PROGRAM

Hope this helps,

Debbie

Smile
 
Posts: 4715 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

Werner hosts his own images.

However, regarding Free Hosting Software

Here is a direct quote from Ethan Lipsig from October 17, 2011

______________________________________________________

It appears that there is a very serious disadvantage to using Photobucket to post pictures: the Pictures will disappear from our message board if Photobucket ceases to exist, if the user deletes the posted pictures from Photobucket, or perhaps under other circumstances. To verify that this problem is a real one, I deleted the test photos I had posted. As you can see if you scroll up, they are gone from the message board. Although Photobucket works, its lack of permanence dictates against using it.

_____________________________________________________________

Since we are establishing archival information, we prefer to not have images disappear!

This is the image Ethan referred to



 
Posts: 4715 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
posted
Playing devil's advocate for a moment, wouldn't the same impermanence be true for any other photo host website whether it is a commercial or personal one? I am not advocating for or against Photobucket or any other commercial or personal web host, but rather pondering how permanent any image is on the web unless someone has a web page and back up system 100% under their permanent control.
 
Posts: 858 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

The purpose of my post was to advocate having images posted on our Discussion Site. I have also indicated the correct size and resolutions that work the best for our site.

 
Posts: 4715 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
posted
I agree.
 
Posts: 858 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
IHC Member 1736
posted
Bought this closed case watch out of the UK last week for a song... I replaced the yellow'd crystal... turns out to be a really nice watch.

Can anyone tell me what make a Swiss 259 might be?

 
Posts: 2032 | Location: San Diego, California in the USA | Registered: August 30, 2012
IHC Member 1736
posted
Dial

 
Posts: 2032 | Location: San Diego, California in the USA | Registered: August 30, 2012
IHC Member 1736
posted
Back

 
Posts: 2032 | Location: San Diego, California in the USA | Registered: August 30, 2012
posted
Hi,
That's a Unitas 259 (A Raymonde/Arsa)
Regards
Martin
 
Posts: 37 | Location: United Kingdom | Registered: September 17, 2010
posted
Hi, can anyone provide details on this watch, which was left to me by my father. Interior markings are 15 jewel, Swiss made, with a number 433. It has a leather case by Batty of Manchester. pics to follow.
 
Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
posted
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Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
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Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
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Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
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Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
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Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
Life Achievement
Military Expert
Picture of Greg Crockett
posted
David,

It looks like you have an excellent example of a basic military GS/TP. The bag is not military at all.
 
Posts: 1865 | Location: East Lansing, Michigan USA | Registered: November 24, 2002
posted
Thanks Greg. Is it possible to tell the manufacturer from this? Any idea of current market value?
 
Posts: 8 | Location: South Ayrshire in Scotland | Registered: January 11, 2016
posted
Commercial value depends on condition, how well it runs, has it been professionally cleaned and adjusted recently, etc. Value also depends on the maker - these were made by many makers including some of the big name watchmaker ones with the big name watchmaker signatures on the movements that can bring much higher prices into the hundreds. A no-name one such as this in good working condition regularly brings in the range of US$30 to US$60 on Ebay depending on overall condition and they are up for sale constantly as there is no shortage of them. If it is in need of repair then the Ebay prices tend to be more in the $15 to $25 range. These are the prices of watches that actually sold and are not the "starting bids" that many sellers use to try to lure less knowledgable people to bite on a higher than normal price. The British Army purchased very large numbers of them and a large percentage were never thrown away. Since this is something that was handed down to you by your father and since they do not bring very high prices my recommendation is to keep it in the family to be passed down in rememberance of your father's service during the war.
 
Posts: 858 | Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA | Registered: September 20, 2004
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