I picked up some watch boxes at the flea market this weekend and this is one of them..

My question is this a pocket watch box or wristwatch box or either.

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I'd guess pocket watch, Samie, simply due to the cut slot at the hinge. That would probably be to hold the bow tiedown, keeping the watch in place in the box. Just guessing, of course, but I've seen other manufacturers boxes that had that slot for the bow.

Regards! Mark

No, this is a wristwatch box. Hamilton didn't issue any pocket watches when they launched the "new" Illinois brand in 1953.

They revived the brand name 20 years after originally shutting down the company for a line of lesser-priced watches meant to compete with inexpensive brands like Bulova (and their secondary brand Caravelle) and Timex. The original idea was to keep Illinois distinct from the Hamilton brand so as not to diminish the luster of the parent brand. This didn't work so the next year they offered a line labeled "Hamilton-Illinois." Now the connection was clear, but the venture was still a failure so Hamilton scuttled it a year later.

I've seen these Illinois boxes before, they're quite unusual. Unfortunately this one is incomplete. There was a hinge arrangement inside the box so that a wristwatch fit around a standard collar, which then lay on its side inside the closed box. (The slot near the hinge is where this rotating piece attached.) When the lid was opened the collar rotated and moved the watch up to a standard position to show off the watch. Very clever. Alas that I never kept one in my own collection....

Ah! Very interesting!

Thank you, sir! That's a new one on me as well!

HIGH regards! Mark

I remembered seeing a picture of one of these boxes in the book "Time For America." I looked it up but found that it's very small, just one box among several in the photo. As a result the scan isn't too clear, but you can make out the box itself and the collar, which has rotated to the upward position.

Thanks Rene for the information i was wondering how the watch would be held,,this one measures 4-1/4 inches by 3-1/2 and about 2 inches tall..

Rene,

As you have said, Hamilton advertised the new Illinois series as fine 17 jeweled watches in a "Popular Price Range". My friend, Gordon, who was a hairspring adjuster in the 50s and later in the repair center at Hamilton said that the watches were of equal quality to the rest of the Hamiltons.

I assume my friend is looking at them in terms of the movements. Was the cost savings in the case or did they use a lesser movement as well?

Don

'Was the cost savings in the case or did they use a lesser movement as well?"

Both. The Illinois and Hamilton-Illinois series used imported Swiss movements exclusively, because they cost less than movements made in the Lancaster factory. Cases were also lesser quality, typically with stainless backs. Ironically this pattern continued later on, after the demise of the Hamilton-Illinois experiment, in the regular Hamilton line. Little by little, more imported movements were used. And by the 1960s rolled gold-plate with stainless backs became more prevalent than the slightly higher quality gold-fill of earlier years. Hamilton fought hard to compete in an increasingly difficult market, and they couldn't survive just on the higher end anymore. Ultimately this is what pushed the board of directors to shut down US production completely in January 1969. It was simply no longer economically viable to manufacture movements in the US.

As an interesting sidebar, the shutdown of the Illinois experiment left Hamilton with unused movements. These were recycled into various Hamilton watches. Perhaps the best known is the Cross Country, which used leftover Swiss "Illinois"-signed movements. But then a funny thing happened -- demand for the watch continued after movements ran out. So Hamilton created the Cross Country II -- same case and dial, except the case back was redesigned to fit a 748 American-made movement as a substitute for the obsolete Illinois!

Rene: Here is the Hamilton-Illinois (a poor picture) I did not take it apart.

It was sold to Samie Smith in just about after 3 emails to each other.

The case is unusual 14k gold the dial is textured (need to be refinished) a fine Swiss 17j movement
runs like a dream; and, is flawless. The hands could be gold. The back is marked ILLINOIS 14K.

I would like to think it is from the 1930's.

Well, I have to say that this one is a real head-scratcher. It can't be 1930s, Hamilton didn't import any Swiss movements at all before 1953, and the hyphenated Hamilton-Illinois name was not used prior to 1954. I recognize the dial easily enough, it's the "Debonair D," pictured below in its normal gold-filled case. The 'waffle' pattern, wide numerals, and long narrow hands, are all characteristic of this single model. Note also that it carries an "Incabloc" notation. This is not found on regular Hamiltons and certainly not in watches before the mid-1950s.

The mystery is the case. I find no cases remotely like that in the Hamilton-Illinois catalog pages. Nor are there any other 14K cases advertised. The entire idea of a solid gold Hamilton-Illinois watch runs counter to the purpose of the brand.

So the question becomes how that Debonair D dial and Swiss Hamilton-Illinois movement ended up in a gold case. I certainly see nothing in any of the hundreds of pages of catalogs, brochures, or other materials in my own collection. It's an intriguing mystery.

Rene:

If you take a closer look, the dials may look similar...but they are not! The spacing between the Hamilton Illinois on your dial has a little more space than on the gold model...they surely were printed from different dies.

The (Incabloc) on your model is curved to fit the second bit, on the gold case the second bit is inset and the wording is straighter than rounded. It appears to be a better dial than on your post.

I'm no expert on anything except loving my cat Frankie...so I leave the differences on watches or dials or movements to the men/women who know about those subjects.

Question: Could the gold case have been left over from the Illinois factory buy out...it does have Illinois 14K
stamped on the back of the case?

Thank you Rene for the information And thank you Daniel for selling me ths watch ..

Wow! That's really fascinating! There's obviously more to this story than what shows in the catalogs.

The first catalogued appearance of the revived Illinois brand is in the 1953 issue, where it was even highlighted on the cover: "Hamilton Watch Company presents HAMILTON and ILLINOIS fine watches." They clearly made a big deal of it.

The Illinois section of the catalog is bound into the center of the issue, titled "Illinois Watches -- Fine waches at modest prices. Guaranteed by HAMILTON, most trusted name in watches." The premise of the line was spelled out on the next page:

"WHAT ILLINOIS IS: Illinois is a proud old name in American watch history now used exclusively to identify a new line of fine seventeen jewel watches in the popular-price range, ILLINOIS watches are manufactured to exacting specifications under constant inspection of the Hamilton Watch Company. Thus the quality is so fine that all ILLINOIS watches are guaranteed by the Hamilton Watch Company." [Note that they did not actually claim to manufacture them at the Hamilton factory, nor did they admit anywhere that the movements were in fact fine Swiss imports.]

"WHAT ILLINOIS MEANS TO THE JEWELER:
Illinois watches are styled, guaranteed and distributed by the Hamilton Watch Company, assuring the jeweler of complete support and every assistance in selling and servicing ILLINOIS watches.'

'WHAT ILLINOIS MEANS TO THE CONSUMER:
Illinois Watches give the customer one hundred cents worth of fine watch value for every dollar, plus beautiful advanced styling and all the epndable service expected of a fine watch, plus the backing and guarantee of Hamilton ... the most trust name in fine watches." [Note -- the ellipses were in the original text for effect, and do not designate a deletion.]

Several ladies' styles were listed, and 12 mens models. All were stainless or gold-filled, and all had simply "Illinois" on the dial. All were modestly priced.

My comment about one-year only refers to that particular marking, Illinois only, for in the 1954 catalog the watches were offered under the new hyphenated name of "Hamilton-Illinois." Among the usual claims of quality was one significant comment: "The name Hamilton on the dial assures YOU -- as well as your customers -- of the quality, performance, and value of these fine watches." The emphasis on "YOU" would lead one to think perhaps the jewelers didn't completely buy into Hamilton's 1953 hype. A few new styles were offered, with a total of 18 men's styles, plus a couple of dial variations. Once again, all were gold-filled or stainless, or both -- filled bezel with stainless back was common. All dials were marked with both Hamilton and Illinois names and all were inexpensive.

In the 1955 catalog Hamilton gave it one last shot, but with much less hype and fanfare. There were 22 men's styles shown in a rather plain, matter-of-fact way, once again all in fill or stainless. None were catalogued in gold. All still had the Hamilton-Illinois name.

In the 1956 catalog there is no mention of Illinois anymore, however this year was the first launch of watches with recycled, left-over Illinois movements like the first Cross Country. The plug had been pulled quietly.

So, where do the 14K Illinois watches fit into the puzzle? I'm sure curious to know! Perhaps there is something in the NAWCC library. I checked old issues of the company's employee magazine, "Timely Topics" without finding any references at all.

It's purely speculation but it might have been one last gasp, going the opposite route and trying an upscale market approach. Obviously they exist, but equally obviously they don't appear in the catalogs. As originally conceived and marketed, it was a short program -- one year of Illinois watches and just under two years of Hamilton-Illinois. At the end of the experiment, there were plenty of movements left over. We know that these were used in some Hamilton watches. At least one of those was never catalogued -- an automatic with an 'up-down' indicator. In the Hamilton-Illinois series this was catalogued as the "Signamatic" in a stainless case. When the line was shut down and some of those movements remained, Hamilton obviously chose to case them in Hamilton gold-filled cases with Hamilton dials, but they didn't bother to catalog them, probably because there weren't enough to warrant it. However many were made, they were quietly sold off. That may well have been the fate of the watch discussed here -- uncatalogued and quietly sold.

There is one possibility. Every year Hamilton produced a small number of watches to protect trademark. They even sold Bunn Specials with Swiss movements to protect the trademark. This is just conjecture on my part.

We have seen several watches and dials that were not in catalogs.

Don

A good point, Don, though the fact that the dials pictured here are so similar would lead me to think they fit within the same time frame.

I had a thought this afternoon that I hoped might help solve the mystery. Although Hamilton didn't make any explanations to employees in the company magazine, I figured they might just be more open with their own shareholders since those were the people management really had to answer to. So I went to the annual reports to see what they had to say.

In the 1952 report, issued in early 1953 to report on the previous year, they reported on many key issues affecting the company -- "Inventories bulge" (due to a decline in consumer buying following the outbreak of the Korean war), "Increased Competition" (more low-end imports in the market), a "New Distribution Plan" (eliminating wholesalers and selling directly from the factory to the jeweler with no intermediary -- thus yielding higher profits). In the midst of this important market news was the announcement "NEW ILLINOIS LINE -- High domestic labor costs have heretofore prevented Hamilton from profitably producing watches in the $35 to $60 price range. A new line of watch movements imported from Switzerland will be timed and cased at the Hamilton factory and will enable us to compete effectively in this lower-priced field. This line will be offered to jewelers early in 1953 under the ILLINOIS trade name. The addition of the popular-priced line of ILLINOIS watches will affoard broad coverage of the watch market over the lare volume price ranges, and should add materially to the Company's sales volume."

In the 1954 report Hamilton seems guilty of perhaps overhyping the success of that first year's venture: "sales of imported Hamilton-Illinois watches more than doubled the 1953 sales figure. This popular priced line, with consumer prices starting at $33.95, has become increasingly well established and is a growing and important factor in its large and highly competitive segment of the watch market."

Then comes the 1955 report, which says about the Hamilton-Illinois success story -- absolutely nothing. Not one word. No mention, no passing reference.... Did any shareholders notice? I wonder if anyone stood up at the stockholder's meeting that year and asked about it? Publicly, at least, Hamilton's "growing and important" stake in the competitive market became a dead issue.

But the consistent theme in all the promotions was low-price, which of course is why the 14K Illinois watches are so mystifying....

When i get the watch i will take some pictures of the movement and case..

Rene and Donald and others thank you for all the time you have spend looking for the info. I know that you folks spend a lot of time digging through old records and papers and without your help someone like me would have no idea what we have..

i THINK YOU DESERVE A GREAT BIG THANK YOU

Great info guys.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. What say you//////

What an interesting thread!! I wonder if these 14K models might be a little more recent than 1953-55? Perhaps with all of the hype of 1957 and the electrics coming out, they were (accidently or otherwise) forgotten from the annual reports? Perhaps Hamilton chose not to remind their long-time stock holders what a lousy investment their acquisition of Illinois had been? Sadly maybe no-one will ever know more, but these two 14K examples both seem to share colorful case designs.

The watch came in the mail today And Daniel was right it is nice ,with a new band it will be sharp.