I RECENTLY BOUGHT ON EBAY A VERY NICE ILLINOIS BUNN SPECIAL 18 SIZE 21 RUBY JEWELS.SERIAL NUMBER 1,860,779.ACCORDING TO MY ILLINOIS DATABASE ILLINOIS MADE ONLY ONE RUN IN THE YEAR 1906 FROM SERIAL NUMBER 1,860,701 TO 1,861,000 MADE ONLY 300.CONSIDERING THE BUNN'S SPECIAL TOTAL PRODUCTION NUMBER WHAT IS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE,IF ANY, BETWEEN THIS PRODUCTION RUN AND THE OTHER ONES>?IS THIS A"SPECIAL" RUN?ALSO WHAT IS THE MAIN DIFFERENCE WITH THE BUNN SPECIAL 21 RUBY JEWELS"EXTRA"?THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP

David,thank you for your answers i have seen before,now it looks like they are disappeared....any clue??

Thank you very much to Lindell and David. Now everything it clears
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David's response:

Date: Monday, October 20, 2008, 6:24 AM

Andrea, I withdrew my reply because I was wrong. The situation is that the great quantity of nearly 23,000 Bunn Specials were marked Bunn Special in the large serial number range that includes your Bunn Special.

I reviewed all the details of this with Lindell, because the Meggers Ehrhardt can be misunderstood.

With careful study, I now understand the Meggers Ehrhardt book only says that explain that a few 18s 21 Jewel movements made in the 1,000 piece run that yours came from were actually marked "Illinois" instead of Bunn Special, and those marked Illinois are more rare and have higher collectible value.

Sometimes too much information is as hard to understand as too little.

David
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Lindell,

thank you very much,you are a living encycopledia !!

The Illinois database i was referring too. I think a good question now would be how many Bunn Special 18 size 21 Ruby Jewels adjusted 6 positions,double Roller has been produced compared to the ones Adjusted 5 positions and no double roller markings...

Thank you

..finally I have found and bought one "rare" Bunn model,21 jewels but marked ILLINOIS WATCH Co...!!This one should belong in the rare Group.
Serial number 1,634,243,made in the year 1902 from the run:1,634,001-1,634,400.

...and correct dial even if a couple of hairlines..

Andrea,

Does the damaskeen between the two plates look to be the same. I ask this because there appears to be two different colors on the inlays of the lettering.

Steve

Steve-
on a larger pic they do look the same,gold in-laid circle (third pattern) As sooon i'll recive the watch i will make better pics and in case,checking the serial numbers.
Andrea

My doubt is the "Golden" lettering "illinois watch co." As i guess it should be black lettering?Anyway,the way to be 100% sure is to check the watch as soon it arrieves to me.

Another interesting thing,on this 2006 topic:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...551026761#4551026761

It is mentioned a Bunn special with a serial just 8 numbers less then mine..1,634,235 and being 2-tone.If anyone can put a picture so we can compare it would be interesting.

Also,the lettering "illinois Watch co." in old English match the style and type of the period (as the Dial).As i said my only doubts are the gold lettering since i've always seen in Black.
lettering.

I just need to wait for my watch and check the serial numbers.One thing is for sure:if the serial numbers match this one it is a real of a kind watch!
Andrea

Andrea,

The database list this as a gold inlaid circle (3d) pattern with black lettering. That is what brought my attention to the gold lettering.

Steve

quote:

We find there were some 21-Jewel "Bunn Special" Grade movements finished WITHOUT BUNN SPECIAL MARKINGS but rather signed as "ILLINOIS WATCH CO." instead. The late Bill Meggers explained these watches as "...unique among the 21-Jewel Grade "Bunn Special" varieties in that the movements are not marked "Bunn Special" although they are listed as such in the Serial Number-Grade Listings. Actual production may be considerably less than indicated

Any known example picture to compare Markings with this movement?

Andrea

Andrea,

This is the only reference (other than one with more wording on the movement) that came close. Your serial number is a little out of range from this and the demaskeen pattern is different than the one in the explanation. Also it calls for all black letering. You may want to tear the watch down to verify the serial numbers. If this was sold as an extremely rare movement because of the markings, you may want to verify and get back to the seller before leaving any feedback. It it proves out wrong then you may want to contact the seller for him to make it right or contact ebay and file a complaint. If all numbers match, that would be great and the watch could be cleaned and timed before going into your collection.

Steve

Steve,thank you

I just bought the watch and should be here within 2/3 days,as soon I get it I will bring it to my watchmaker to check the serial numbers under the barrel bridge.Hopefully will match!The seller seems a very honest person and i am sure ,once i do verify the serial numbers, (if they do not match he will reimburse my money back.He did not claim anything as rare or extremely rare and looks to me has been very honest in describing his watch.So we just have to wait and see! I will post the informations as soon i find out.

One encouraging thing is this post:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...271090981#4271090981

the private label bunn special barrel bridge looked really different from the rest of the watch but then it was correct...Lets hope mine is too! ..It would be anyway interesting to check the serial numbers and see which run they belong so to have a comparison for future ones.
Thank you.
Andrea

Steve,

also in the run you did refer from 1,536,001-1,536,300 i have seen movement signed "Bunn Special" as the picture below,so i guess the ones marked "Illinois Watch co." could have come in any run..
Andrea

Andrea,

More confusion added to the madness. The movement you pictured definately falls into the window of numbers posted above but the Narrow Stripe 6th Pattern" demaskeen does not. The fact that it appears to be a private label may or may not have anything to do with that. There may have been variations within the run to explain that. Below is another listing and if you notice the last one listed is 1,500 of the "Striped" demaskeen pattern as shown above. Also notice this grade was made in runs from 1208201-1730300 (1894-1905). Which the above metioned movement does as well. Also, the watch you just purchased does also and is listed two movements above it (Gold inlaid circle).

Also look at bullet #4...."Many are private label-marked with different damakeening pattern than those shown above"

If anyone else could shed some light on this feel free to jump in.

In other words this seems to be going nowhere to resolve your question as it seems behind every door is another door....some sort of recycling loop of illogical madness.

Steve

Steve-

you said it right"it seems behind every door is another door.."That what looks like trying to "understand" Illinois Watch co.,but that is also the beauty of that,...research and research..this is our common passion,,,
Here is another movement with the same pattern i did find that i am sure will add more confusion..

I am very curious to see the serial number under the Barrel Bridge of my watch..This Barrel Bridge has been "Made" for the Bunn Special movements in 18 size,so it may give us some "clues" about the Serial numbers used on Bunn Models marked "Illinois Watch co."...unless it is a match as I do hope..

Andrea

Andrea,

Your last picture posted looks like we may have finally found one that falls into it's crrect place in the Illinois Book. It is the last one listed with the striped pattern.

Steve

and this one..

I noticed the two previous movements are only 15 numbers away in sequence.

Steve

Steve,

looking at the picture on my watch movement,It looks like there is little black paint inside the golden letters"Illinois Watch co.".Do you think originally the color might be black?...Just an opinion,but if you can give me your email i can send you a bigger picture of the movement to look at.

Andrea

Andrea,

Have you received the movement yet? You can email me at middsmx@embarqmail.com.

Steve

Steve,

I just email you,thank you.I am expecting the watch within 2/3 days.I am looking forword in seeing it!

Andrea

I did recieve the watch today,but my watchmaker is out of town till monday ...I've never checked a barrel bridge by my own,is this something that i can do it easily just unscrewing the two screws or it is better to let a watchmaker do i?Any advise pleasse?

Andrea

Andrea
You have to make sure all of the power is let down from the mainspring 1st, even if the watch has run down there can still be some reserve power there. It might be best to have your watchmaker do it.

Tom

Thanks Tom,that what I was thinking too..I am going to some watch repair store downtown and have it check it hopefully today.

Andrea

It is not a match,my jewelry guy told me last 4 numbers are "5365",marked in golden ..Do you think this Barrel Bridge was one of the few used by Illinois Watch co."exclusively" on some Bunn Specials?Not many seen around like this Barrel Bridge markings that match a bunn special 18 size..It is still a very nice piece,but since i have already one i am going to sell it at ihc auction..

Sorry that didn't match, wonder if the person that did the switch had the goal of fooling someone?

It would be nice if the entire serial number was there just to see what it came from.

One possibility was run number 1625101-1626000, that would have included those 4 digits on yours, it was a 18s model 17j model 6 grade 64. I didn't go through the entire serial number list but from yours back that was the only set of the same model I could find.

Tom

Thank you Tom.I do not think the person that switched it,(maybe was a watchmaker...who knows.).,did it with bad intentions.This Barrel Bridge has been made for this movement...i did not see many Barrel Bridges with "illinois watch co." markings that would have fit the Bunn Special movements..
Andrea

When i say" made for this movement" i mean for 18 size Bunn Special movements,,,
Andrea