The Blue Book says that the 12 size Illinois Grade 129 watch is not listed in the serial number listings, but was advertised by Illinois. So there is essentially no info on this watch.

I found one on ebay recently and was the only bidder so I got it for $50. Serial number is 5469828 which is listed in the Blue book as Grade 127 if I remember correctly.

Anyone else find one of these? If so post some pics and your serial number so we can narrow down how many of these were produced.

John III

John,

There were 20,300 of these Grade 127 made in 21 runs between 1927-1932. There were also 1000 made in one run in 1931 that bared the Hamilton name.

As far as I know, a grade 129 was never produced.

I remember having one of these at one time and ended up selling it.

Steve

John,

After looking at your photo closer, I see it appears to be marked as "129". I am thinking this to be rather rare as it falls into the "127" grade by serial number but clearly looks to be as a marked "129".

Mine was marked "127". Yours however, appears to be a full bridge where the drawing is a split or false bridge.

Below is the Ehrhardt drawing of the movement.

Steve,

It is definitely marked '129'. Here is the link where you can look at an enlarged photo.

Illinois Grade 129 17 Jewel Pocket Watch

From the bigger picture, you can see it is a false bridge just like the Ehrhardt photo.

John III

John,

Very, very, interesting find. These are not supposed to exist. I wonder how many were made in that run. I believe all the 127 were 17 jewel and the 129 were supposed to be 19 jewel yet yours is clearly marked 17 jewels.

Steve

It would seem strange that if the grade 129 was thought to be non exsistant it would appear in the price “guide” at all. I thought the prices listed in the guide were realized from past sales, internet, auctions etc...
Did they just list the 129 prices at a “like” models past sales?
And if so, the prices are set very low and no stars for a grade that is thought to not exsist at all.

Congrats to you on the sharp eye and great find.

Ray,

It isn't in the Price Guide. In fact most of the medium grade 12 size watches that are not private labels are not listed in the Shugart "Complete Price Guide to Watches".

The watch is listed in THE Illinois pocket watch reference guide which I affectionately call the "Blue Book". The book is officially called "American Pocket Watches, Volume 2, Illinois Watch Co., Encyclopedia and Price Guide" by Bill Meggers and Roy Ehrhardt. Here is what they say about this Grade:

The Grade "129" does not appear, as such, in the Serial Number-Grade Listing, page 327. However, it does appear in a 1930 factory advertisement, from which the Part 1 Marking and Part 2 Description were obtained. it also is mentioned in a 1929 advertisement, where it is referred to as "Old Grade "407". The most plausible explanation is that, unlike Grades "121" and "127", the Grade "129" was never made, as such. Advertisements were prepared and distributed but any movements that were sold in response were Grade "407". In this regard, it is interesting to note that the highest serial number for a Grade "407" is 4,966,000 whereas the Grades "279" and "405" continue up into the low five-millions. This further suggests that Grade "407" was discontinued earlier that Grades "279" and "405", thereby precluding the manufacture of any Grade "129" movements. However, this is all pure speculation, so the listing is included here only for completeness.

It seems they did make some after all as part of a run of Grade 127 movements.

John III

Hi John,
I am a wee bit confused. In the 2010 Shugart "Complete Price Guide to Watches” on pg 286 there does seem to be a 12 size grade 129 listed but shown as 19j. Or is it implied that the 19j exists but the 17j does not?

Ray,

I stand corrected. I thought you were referring to my original post where I as discussing the Blue Book. I hadn't even looked in the Price Guide!

There is a listing for a 19J Grade 129 which is also what is listed in the Blue Book, although the one I won on ebay is clearly a 17J. For comparison, I went back to my 1982 watch guide No. 2 (before the Illinois book was published), and it was listed there as "129, 19J, HCl3P, $80 in ABP, $90 in EF". So a watch in EF has gone up a whopping $35 in 28 years.

I agree with you - how they came up with a price on a supposedly non-existent watch is a mystery. Only thing I can figure is that there were other ones out there that have sold over the years.

One of the thing I love about this hobby is solving a mystery. This one is getting better all the time. My next goal is to find the advertising from 1929 mentioned in the Blue Book. That must be where the 19J came from.

John III

Here is the 1930 factory advertisement from Illinois. There are a number of differences between the advertised watch and the one I found on ebay:

• 19J vs 17J
  
• "Adjusted 3 Positions" vs "Adjusted"
  
• "Illinois Watch Co" encircling "Springfield" vs "Illinois" on a diagonal
  
• Gold center wheel vs non-GCW
  
• Apparently true bridge design vs false bridge
  
• Winding wheel and main wheel have different designs
  

Clearly these are two different watches sharing the same grade name. Perhaps Hamilton reusing a grade number from a watch that was never produced.

John III

I received the Illinois Grade 129 watch today. Surprisingly, it is marked 19 jewels not 17! To the naked eye it definitely looks like a 17 so I can see why the listing was for a 17 jewel watch.

The 19 looks funny to me as does the Illinois signature. Any thoughts?

John III

Here is the complete movement. Still a mystery to me, but that is what makes it fun.

Here is a Grade 127 I found on ebay recently. The serial number is 5468577. I would buy it, but it is out of my price range for a 17 jewel 12s Illinois watch in a gold filled case.

Looks very similar to the Grade 129 above. Hmmm...

John III

mmm, I wonder if it was upjeweled to a 19 jewel from a 17 jewel or mismarked a 17j and re marked as a 19j?. Strange to say the least

John
I have seen the square letters for Illinois before.
It does look like the watch was stamped 17 j and then restamped to make it 19j.Possibly someone at the factory screwed up and originally mismarked it.
As to not being in the Price Guide. There are literally thousands of Illinois private labels and it would be impossible to have a complete listng.

As the grade 129 is a 12 size most collectors show very little interest in them. I have found several grades such as the 23j 299 hunter and the grade 435 in an original gold case that had not "been seen". The grade 129 may be be an example of being overlooked by the RailRoad Boys.

Bob

Is the Illinois Blue Book available?

RBL

Robert,
About the only place is on flea bay ocasionally or here occasionally. I looked for one at the usual book stores on the net and never found one until I got it on e-bay some time ago.
Bill

The Upjeweling and re-marking of the 17 to 19 looks correct, as the 129 appears to have caps on the escape wheel which I would bet money are not functional caps.

Thanks for the input gentlemen. It definitely appears to me that the Illinois factory took some Grade 127 watches and upjeweled them to make a prototype Grade 129 of sorts. Not sure how many as I only have two serial numbers out of the run of 2000 to go on. I'll keep my eyes open for any more examples to try to get more clearer picture.

John III