• BUNN SPECIAL 23 JEWEL MOTOR BARREL 60 TYPE I, II AND III WITH "A" & "B" VARIANTS •

October 25, 2008, 16:44

Steve Middlesworth

Andrea,

The ones that are marked with "Motor Barrel 60" on the barrel bridge are called the Type I. With that marking and the "60 HOUR" on the train bridge are the Type II. If it is only marked "60 HOUR" on the train bridge it is a type III. This holds true for the 19 jewel and 21 jewel 60 hour watches as well as 23 jewel. Regarding production of the 23 jewel there were 900-1100 of the Type I, 500-600 of the Type II, and about 11,200 of the Type III. Hope this is of help to you.

Steve

October 25, 2008, 16:50

Lindell V. Riddle

Hello Andrea,

Steve's response to your question is excellent.

It is interesting to note the 23-Jewel 60-Hour Type II marked "Sixty Hour" above Bunn Special on the train bridge and "Motor Barrel 60" as well as "23-Jewels" by the crown wheel enjoyed less production and today is more easily recognized therefore better appreciated by collectors due to its somewhat redundant "double marking" that stands out as somewhat different even to those otherwise unfamiliar with these watches.

In this and two posts that follow I will provide images and some additional information you and others may find worthwhile about the three 23-Jewel 60-hour "Types" that proceeded the highly valued 163 series of variants known today as "The Seven Stars" by most Illinois collectors.

Lindell

It is important to realize that reference to "Types" of Illinois watches was the system of recognition put into place by the late William "Bill" Meggers in order to differentiate between variants. That system of "Type-Numbering" was not used by Illinois early-on or by Hamilton after they took over in 1928 and should be regarded only as Meggers' attempt at an identification process, that and nothing more. We follow the Meggers System out of respect for the tremendous amount of effort he put into all he left behind for us.

The earliest of 60-Hour 23-Jewel Bunn Specials are today known as "Type I" as shown in the first of three illustrations below. Notice the Fourth-Pattern-Rayed Damaskeening and previous Non-60-Hour markings continue with "Adjusted Temp and Six Positions" near the movement number and "Double Roller" below the balance wheel. These variants differ primarily in markings above "Bunn Special" on the train bridge and whether or not "60" appears after "Motor Barrel" near the crown wheel on the barrel bridge.

23-Jewel Type I of which some 700-900 were produced...

October 25, 2008, 16:50

Lindell V. Riddle

The next 23-Jewel 60-Hour variant is known as "Type II" by collectors. All the previous markings continue but now we find "Sixty-Hour" appearing above the "Bunn Special" signature on the train bridge. As mentioned previously this variant being considered as "double-marked" is more easily recognized by even those otherwise unfamiliar with the different variants. That and the fact less were made causes a premium to be attached to this variant over and above the Type I and Type III examples.

23-Jewel Type II of which a mere 500-600 were produced...

October 25, 2008, 16:50

Lindell V. Riddle

Finally with the 60-Hour "Type III" the notation of "60" is dropped from "Motor Barrel" designation near the crown wheel on the barrel bridge. Of course "Sixty-Hour" continues above "Bunn Special" signature on the train bridge.

The earliest of 60-Hour Type III movements will have the same "Illinois Watch Co." signature followed by "Springfield" on the train bridge but this would change after the 1928 takeover of Illinois by the Hamilton Watch Company. Meggers makes no mention of this change in his notes on these variants, but it appears he erroneously believed this change did not begin until the advent of Hamilton-influenced Grade 163 markings. Today we know better, for example, I have Type III movements of both with and without "Co." in my collection and consider those without the "Co." to be a later Type III sub-variant for want of a better term.

So today we are assigning "Type III A" and "Type III B" designations to them for identification purposes. We suggest that a Type III marked with "Illinois Watch Co." signature hereafter be designated as a "Type III A" and those with "Illinois Watch" signature become known as the "Type III B" variant as shown by 5321056 immediately below this posting. At this point we could surmise of the 11,000 or so Type III in 23-Jewel there may have been some 9,000 of the A variant and about 2,000 of the B variant.

We estimate about 2,000 of the 23-Jewel Type III B were produced...

October 25, 2008, 17:12

Steve Middlesworth

Andrea,

Be sure to notice that the Type III shown above is missing the previously used "Co." from the "Illinois Watch" lettering designating this as one that was finished some time after the Hamilton take over. As Lindell pointed out this does not hold true for all of the Type III's but it does for the one shown above, the Type III B variant, which is the less common of the two Type III variants.

In completing this topic, below see movement number 5067943 a 23-Jewel Type III A of which we think 9,000 or so were produced making this one the most common of the 23-Jewel Type I, II, III A and III B variants.

Steve

We estimate some 9,000 of the 23-Jewel Type III A were produced...

October 25, 2008, 17:19

Andrea Schiavi

Lindell and Steve,

Thank you very much, now i do understand... finally!

Your pictures and descriptions are the Top as always on IHC Forums.

October 29, 2008, 00:13

David Abbe

Andrea,As it is clear that you are very interested in Illinois watches. The "Blue Book" is what you need most. My copy of this book is what I have to hunt through to answer my and your Illinois questions.

October 30, 2008, 14:00

Andrea Schiavi

David, thank you for the advise, I find Illinois Watch Co. was such an unbelievable manufacturer of variants and models, but that's where it comes IHC185, to be able to share opinions and all the datas togheter with all its members!

Thanks,
Andrea

February 08, 2012, 09:44

Jeff Payne

I have a Type III B. Do you all have the serial numbers documented that would tell what serial numbers were used in that watch without the "Co"? And which serial number was the first?
thanks so much,
Just joined!

February 09, 2012, 08:41

Dr. Debbie Irvine

Check out the responses to your question here ...

Bunn Special Type III B Questions

May 04, 2013, 10:19

Wesley Simmons

I currently own the bunn special 23 jewel 60 hour type 1. It works flawlessly and keeps better time than my modern eta 2824. I had it worked on by the good people at the Illinois Watch Company. They have a very nice website and have rather low prices compared to most. I just wanted people to know about them they are a small business in Illinois. I cant say enough good things about them.