Hi All,

Just wondering if anyone can tell me how many 18s Bunn 17 Jewel watches were made in pendant set, the pocketwatch database has the overall figure for all Bunns' only, also it states that this is Railroad Grade, should it not be lever set for this to be correct? The serial# 1785249 and has the Sunburst 5th pattern, marked Double Roller & 6 positions.

Bila,

I wouldn't trust that online database, it's full of errors. Use the Meggers & Ehrhardt Illinois Watch Co. Encyclopedia. Your watch is a Variety 3 17-jewel Bunn, the only Bunn to be marked 6 positions. Total production was 2,600, all open-face. It was considered railroad grade at the time it was made (1905-1906).

Under Mechanical Features of 18-size movements on page 80 of the Meggers & Ehrhardt Illinois Watch Co. Encyclopedia, the only setting method mentioned is lever, so in regard to your question on how many pendant-set movements were made, the answer is none, all the 18-size Illinois movements were lever-set.

Whether or not they were considered railroad grade at any point in time depends on configuration (hunter or open-face), jewel count, adjustments, single or double roller, etc. in relation to the railroad standards then in effect.

For more info on these watches, check this out:

18S Bunn & Bunn Special Archive.

I'm moving this topic to the Illinois forum.

Thanks for the correct info Ed and the move to the correct place on the board.

Best Regards,
Bila

That generally agrees with the Snyder Data base as well. Snyder reports that yours is from a 400 piece run in 1905 (of the total 2,300 made of this model 6 variant marked 6 positions).

If this is actually a pendant set, it deserves a full review of the movement.

Thanks David, after Ed's info this morning on closer inspection, I noticed the cut in the dial plate for the lever but no lever, someone had decided to pilfer the lever. So it is definately a lever set from the runs you and Ed have both spoke about.

Best Regards,
Bila

The lever could have been broken off or removed for some reason, like perhaps someone converted the watch to pendant setting.

I'll strip it down Ed and check to see if anything has been altered or changed out with another watch, the watch has a D/S Montgomery dial with straight Illinois signature in block letters, judging by the info in the archives you pointed me to I would say this is from a 1910 onwards Bunn model?

Best Regards,
Bila

Yes, 1910 onwards for the dial vs. 1905 for the movement.

Can you set it with the pendant?

Away from home at present David, I will check when I get back.

Reminder: 18s Illinois model 4 movements are pendant-set.

Far be it from me to attempt to offer some good advice here, but according to my Blue book it lists ser#s 1185901-1186000 as 18s OF 17j Bunns as either Pendant or Lever set, it also list other serial numbers throughout that are 18s Bunns as Pendant or Lever set.
My copy was a copy that apparently was owned by Ehrhardt and there are a few handwritten serial numbers also that list some Bunns as lever or pendant, or in some cases pendant only.
There also appears to be several 18s movements not Bunns that are pendant set. Nor do they appear to be all model 4's.
Bill

I was looking further and at the ser# Bila gave that being 1785249. It lists that watch in the serial number lookup of the Blue book as an 18s 17j OF Mdl 6 Bunn pendant set, so this leaves me to believe that as far as he movement it is quite likely correct. I would think if we are using the Blue book, and we all know it has some error, that we must use it in its entirety, not pick and choose what we want to see/ believe. When someone such as myself has so little knowledge and we require some expertise, hopefully we would get information that would take all factors into the mix. We as neophytes take the information from this and other boards as being correct, and we make decisions based on this information, to buy, and just for the knowledge. I do not know why most of the very knowledgeable persons on here all jumped on the band that there was no pendant set 18s models.
Thanks,
Bill
Oh that run was from 1785001 - 1785400

I have to admit that I was expecting someone that knows to pipe up, and advise me that I was reading the Blue book wrong, or that they would be able to say that maybe there was some pendant set watches. I find it hard to believe that no one has since spoken. I think most all of you have the blue book or the later CD to confirm or dispute what I had read.
Thanks,
Bill

Thanks for the interesteing info Bill, I am still yet to check the movement out since I spoke about the watch previously, as I have been travelling around the country to swap meets and boot sales. I have packed a fair bit of my gear in to boxes to make room for other stuff so when I get another chance to dig it out I will check to see if the pendant will set it, as David had spoken about previously. I still have not been able to source a correct dial in my travels either.

Regards,
Bila

Bila,
I guess we are still wondering if the data I got is correct or not, is there a major mistake in my copy of the Encyclopedia. So the burning question is: Is there such a thing as an 18s Illinois watch that is pendant set, and even better is there any 18s 17 jewel Bunns that are pendant set. I know I would appreciate the answer, as I imagine you would also, as it would be nice to know if your watch is correct from a movement aspect or not

Bill,

Below is part of page 364 from the Illinois Watch Co book volume 2.

Thanks Richard,
That is what I quoted from in my book also. It was just that others were pretty adamant that there was NO pendant set Bunns, I was wondering if the information they quoted from was more reliable. I just think that as I stated earlier if the people that do not have the expertise, take at face value the experts thoughts there will be a lot of watches not being bought, traded, sold, because of those remarks, that being said, if the advise is given it should be researched at least with basic effort to make sure tit is reliable. Most / some of us at least have the Blue book, which would have been an easy check.
Bill

Bill,

I’ve been trying to figure out what is going on with this watch and the original question posted.

1. How many 18 size Bunn pendant set watches?

Not very many about 100-150 is what I’ve found. The pendant set Bunn watches were produced about 1892-1893. The pendant set is a Model 4. The lever set is a model 6 so the Illinois book serial number listing above is inconsistent. The Illinois blue book however does have the watch as a lever set model 6 as can be seen below.

2. So what is the watch in question?

It is lever set. The Pocket Watch Database also shows it as pendant set probably because the information is from the Illinois Watch Co. serial numbers. Luckily they have a picture of a watch from the same run and you can see the lever.

I’m learning that Illinois watches are very difficult to understand because the runs that are listed are not always full runs but instead some are mixed. It is possible the watch is pendant set but if it is most likely it will be a modified model 6 rather than a model 4.

RR

Image from the Pocket Watch Database on top and below Illinois Watch Co. page 83

Richard,
I think Bila's stated that this watch was pendant set, and how many pendant set watches were there? The answer was unequivocal, none. there was no pendant set 18 size Illinois watches, let alone Bunn's, and that likely someone replaced, broke the lever or some other mishap. My only response was that there were lots of 18s Illinois watches pendant set, and there was several Illinois Bunn runs both lever and pendant set.
Seeing in the Blue book that the run in question was a mixed run, why is Bila's watch a lever set anyway, because she stated that there was a cut in the case ? The case might not be original, but that does not make the watch lever set, or am I just so thick that I am missing something else, which I might add I could well be, but from how I am reading the original question, and response I do not think I am.
Really it matters little, it is not my watch, if pendant set as the Blue book states, quite a scarce one, I have nothing to gain or lose,except maybe a little knowledge, if there is any to be gained from this entire exercise, but we still at this time do not know what Bila's watch is, or whether it is a put together watch, as suggested. I would not like to think that Bila would dispose of this watch as a result of misinformation, seeing as it is quite scarce.
Last comment on this matter, and I stick to my previous comments.
Bill

Bill,

I was basing that the watch is lever set by what Dave wrote above. Also, the watch in the picture is from the same run and it’s lever set.

The Illinois blue book is a great source of information but it was completed in 1985 and since then a lot more information has been gathered. The book that Mr. Meggers put together is without a doubt the best resource for Illinois watches but since its printing there have been a few errors found.

The fact that none of the sources, Illinois Watch Co. book, the online Pocket Watch Database, and the CDof the Illinois Book from IHC Member Bill Selover "partimeart" on eBay lists the watch as a model 4 (they all list it as a model 6) also leads me to believe that the watch is, or originally was, lever set.

Illinois watch models are defined by original mechanical features. The model 4 is pendant set and the model 6 is lever set. Bila wrote there is a cut in the dial plate for a lever and it’s definitely a lever set.

I am not saying that it’s impossible that the watch Bila has is a model 4. It is just most likely a model 6.

To me finding something different or out of the norm is part of what makes this hobby so much fun. For that reason I would like to see the watch in question is an original model 4 pendant set and if it is good for Bila because it will definitely be uncommon. If the watch ends up being a model 6 that is now pendant set it still is a model 6, which should be lever set, that has been modified.

RR