Here's a creative implementation of a lever setting mechanism. Here it is in the winding setting...

Mike Miller

And here in the setting position...

Can anyone guess the manufacturer?

Mike Miller

I really don't think that will be necessary.





Now, do you know in what way mine differs from yours?

=========================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

OK I'll guess. Is that one of those "long wind" Waterburrys or maybe New York Standard?

I really have no idea and believe that first watch I'm refering to is a much cheeper watch but what the heck you never know right?

Aaron

Now that's a "worm" I'd like to have

Mike Miller

Well, as y'all can see, the worm has turned......


Hey, at least I didn't say: It's a dead-ringer for Mike's watch!




Oops!

======================

SM

I guess Steve and Aaron are right on now do you want the serial# Steve is that a two footed dail?

And here I thought I'd stump someone. Not a chance with this group. Steve and Aaron nailed it... an 18S New York Standard.

And it should look very familiar to Ted, since it came to me from him. I would imagine that all of these needed a two footed dial due to the movement of the gear-ring. Now to find a two footed dial.

Mine doesn't have the worm gear, but still is interesting to me. Thanks for playing the game


Mike Miller

Actually, mine has a NO-footed dial. The dial is (or was) composed of a thin piece of celluloid, glued to a thin brass "dial pan," which "snaps" into the recess around the perimeter of the front of the movement.

It's essentially a "snap-fit" dial, but instead of snapping OVER the pillar plate, it snaps inside it.

I'm not certain, but I believe all the "ring-gear" NYS models were like that, although some (including mine, at the moment) have had porcelain dials added over the years to replace the celluloid, which obviously didn't stand the test of time. The porcelain NYS dial on mine has simply had its feet removed, and was then glued onto the original dial pan.

===================

SM

Mike,
Does your movement have 2 dial screws in the pillar plate? I have a dial from an early NYS that has two feet. The feet are at the 31/2 minute mark and the 33 minute mark.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

Brian,

3 1/2 and 33 min marks are the location of dial-feet holes on the PP. There are no dial screws and it looks like the original dial was pinned through the dialfeet. Let me know if you are intersted in selling this one.

Mike

Mike Miller

Before y'all go too far, it would probably be wise to measure the approximate distance between the dial feet on Brian's dial, and compare it to the approximate distance between the holes in Mike's pillar plate. Obviously, in order to stay out of the way of the ring gear, watches utilizing that design would require dials with feet very near the edge.

Although the yoke in Mike's watch has a "notch" that mine doesn't (which could be to accommodate a dial foot,) the fact that it has no dial screw holes in the pillar plate makes it seem unlikely to me that it originally had a footed dial.

The first NYS movements were produced in 1888, and Brian's was probably produced about 1890. I wouldn't think any US company would have been producing movements with pinned dials by such a late date, but I might be mistaken.

==================

SM

Mike,
I tend to agree with Steve. My dial is on a parts movement with a serial number of, 56,454. It is unsigned with Roman numerals. There are two screws to hold the feet to the movement and no holes in the feet. The measurement between the feet is 040.72mm. If your holes measure the same, e-mail me and I can send it out for you to try.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

Now we have a case of missing feet.Mike will check my drawer and see if i have any feet laying around.TED

Brian,

The dial feet on my watch are around 42mm. so it would seem to indicate that this isn't the correct dial.

Steve, the yolk does have the cutout to allow for dial feet to utilize two of the 4 holes that are on the pillar plate.

Here's a picture of the pertinant measurements. The other two dial feet wouldn't be usable due to the movement of the gear-ring. It looks thile this pillar plate arrangement is identical to yours.

Mike Miller

Now as to the pinned dial...

There are no dial screws, and the two usable dial foot holes on the pillar plate seem to have marks indicating that at one time, a pinned dial was used. The SN of this movement is 36785. The mystery continues....

BTW I do have a NYS dial that has had the dialfeet removed that can be used with dial-dots, but to do it right would be better.

Ted, Perhaps NYS is a "footlose" company

Mike Miller

Brian and I have been conversing about the serial numbers on various early NYS movements, and the following is a synopsis what I've determined so far........

The serial number on my NYS "worm-gear" model is 21,447. A friend bought one a while back on eBay, which is serial number 24,677. While mine had the original ruined celluloid dial when I bought it, my friend's had a white porcelain dial with Roman numerals, which like Brian's later dial, is not marked with the company name. None of us know for sure if the porcelain dial was original on the later "worm-gear" models, but I have serious doubts about it. Original factory ads for the "worm" models, show them with dials like my celluloid one, with radial Arabic numerals, and script print that says: "New York Standard Watch Co."

The "worm-gear" model shown in the original advertising images of the period is merely an engraver's rendition, but the serial number on it is 15,886, which seems like a plausible number. The one in George Townscend's drawings bears the serial number 24,500, which also seems plausible, and a photograph of one in the Shugart book shows it to be serial number 31,138. Except for the one in the factory ad, no indication is given as to what sort of dials are on any of those examples.

The info in the Shugart book says: "There was [sic] two runs of the worm-drive model 52,000 made," but from the few serial numbers we now have at hand, it's relatively apparent that estimate could not be accurate. I think there were probably two runs of "ring-gear" models, with the first having the "worm-drive" (all of which probably had celluloid dials), and the second having the standard lever escapement (which may have had porcelain dials).

Since Brian's watch bears the serial # 56,454, and is NOT a ring-gear type, it's probably a "model # 3." The "model # 1" has the "worm-drive" AND the "ring-gear" winding and setting mechanism, while the "model # 2" has a standard lever escapement, yet still has the "ring-gear." The "model # 3" has neither, and is essentially just a conventional watch, although the top plate looks exactly like that of the "model # 2," which in turn, looks exactly like the "model # 1," without the "star" cutout.

In any event, if the first 52,000 really were "worm-drive" models, Mike's # 36,785 would have a "worm-gear" escapement, which it does not. In reality, it has ONLY the "ring-gear" feature without the "worm," and Brian's # 56,454 has neither the "worm" nor the "ring-gear." That seems to indicate that the true serial number range for "worm" models ends somewhere between # 31,138 (the one shown in the Shugart book), and Mike's # 36,785. Ring-gear models without a worm-drive should fall in the serial number range between #31,138 and Brian's # 56,454, and include Mike's # 36,785.

Therefore, assuming NYS serial numbers started at 1 (or 001, etc.), a close estimate would be that between 32,000 and 36,000 "worm-gear" models were originally produced. Those were followed by fewer than 24,000 "ring-gear" models without the "worm," which were then followed by the conventional models with neither of those unique features. If more serial numbers and descriptions of watches in the above range can be reported, the estimates can be narrowed even more.

For what it's worth, it's my understanding that one reason "worm-gear" models are so rare is that many of them didn't make it out of the "guarantee" period, and were returned to the factory. By that time, the company had realized that the "worm" escapement wasn't going to be successful, and they'd started producing essentially the same movement with a standard lever escapement, which was exchanged for the returned "worm-gear" models.



Mike -- The images of your pillar plate above really DO look like it once had a pinned dial, but the holes which may appear to be dial foot holes, may actually have been "alignment" holes for holding the plates in position while the various machine processes were performed. It's possible that two of the holes may have performed a dual purpose, but it's likely that the other two were only for production purposes, and were never intended to hold dial feet.

===============================

SM

Mike & Steve, I think when i got this movement they told me that it was a variation to the worm gear and it took a two footed dail for what its worth. Mike i check my drawer came up two right feet no lefts ha ha. TED

Mike,
I just looked at my friend's crown (ring) gear NYS. You'll be interested to know that it has a porcelain pinned dial. The dial is unsigned and has Roman Numerals with a circle in the center to make it look dbl. sunk. The serial number is, 48,926. It is the second model and doesn't have the worm.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

Steve,
That's some great history you've put up there. So I take it that mine is the second model (Model 2). That is important to know.

Ted,
Well at least you have the right feet... Now to figure out if this is a right or left handed watch

Brian,
Thanks for that tid-bit. I was beginning to wonder if I was seeing things. Everything on this watch pointed to it having a two footed pinned dial. Now I know that they are real. Finding one will be the fun part.

Thanks to everyone for sticking with this thread!

Mike Miller

Mike & Steve, Mike is right on the pinned dail when i got that watch it needed a complete balance so i came across a parts movement the balance was the only thing good#38606 serial. So at work today this was driving me nuts. Came back home made a dash to the drawer still no feet (but) came up with a dail porcelain roman numeral not sign has the dail legs at 3 1/2 and 33. It has a hairline from center to 12 plus a chip at 1. Mike today was a holiday no mail will reopen the fun box and put this dail in hope this help. Learned some great from all this. Thanks Steve

Way to go Ted!

It pays to never throw anything away! The NYS is now running and keeping great time. It even has it's original NYS Case, so this baby will be all original real soon.

Ted you should be receiveing an 18S 7J Rockford real soon. It's going through it's timing test now.

Mike Miller

Mike, This all happen about 10 years ago.Sometimes it takes me a week to find some answers Old Timers i guess. Glad to help. Now Dog and I have to find out or track down if that Waltham i got from you was Casey watch we need help any out there. Mike do you forensic work? Regards TED

To date, The numbers developed through this thread are as follows:

15,886 "Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement" (celluloid dial) *factory ads*
21,447 "Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement" (celluloid dial) *Steve Maddox*
24,500 "Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement" (unknown dial) *Townscend drawing*
24,677 "Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement" (? porcelain dial) *sold on eBay*
31,138 "Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement" (unknown dial) *Shugart book*

36,785 "Ring-Gear - Lever Escapement" (pinned porcelain dial) *Mike Miller*
38,606 "Ring-Gear - Lever Escapement" (pinned porcelain dial) *Ted Steuernagle*
48,926 "Ring-Gear - Lever Escapement" (pinned porcelain dial) *Brian's friend*

56,454 "Conventional Movement" (porcelain dial held by screws) *Brian C.*

Therefore, "Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement" ("model # 1") production appears to have ended between 31,138 and 36,785, and "Ring-Gear - Lever Escapement" ("model # 2") production was then adopted. "Ring-Gear - Lever Escapement" and pinned-dial ("model # 2") production ended somewhere between 48,926 and 56,454 (according to the numbers reported above), and production of the "Conventional Movement" ("model # 3") with porcelain dials held by screws, began thereafter.

Brian mentioned in an e-mail that he'd found an early NYS parts list, which shows different part numbers for the dials of "model # 1" and "model # 2" movements. Presumably, that verifies the theory that all "worm" models originally came with celluloid dials, and probably indicates that all "model # 2" movements had pinned porcelain ones.

Although Brian's source doesn't provide serial numbers for the "model #1" and "model # 2" movements, it does provide them for the "model # 3." They are:

50,001 - 53,000
55,001 - 75,000
100,001 - 125,000

We're guessing that the missing group from 53,001 through 55,000 may be the elusive key-wind models, but that's just a guess. If correct, it means that 2,000 of them were produced, and that they are in fact variations of the "model # 3," rather than the "model # 2."

Assuming the information Brian found is accurate, the end of "model # 2" production came at 50,000, which allows us to break the numbers down as follows:

Model # 1 - (Ring-Gear - Worm Escapement)
From the beginning, through some number between 31,138 and 36,785.
Total Production: Between 31,138 and 36,785*
(*Assuming serial numbers started at 1, which from the numbers reported, may well be a bad assumption; it appears that they may have actually started at 15,000.)

Model # 2 - (Ring-Gear - Lever Escapement)
From some number between 31,138 and 36,785, through 50,000.
Total Production: Between 13,215 and 18,862.

Model # 3 - (Conventional Movement)
50,001 - 53,000; 55,001 - 75,000; and 100,001 - 125,000
Total Production: 48,000

None of the numbers we've accumulated so far seem to conflict with each other, and the numbers we've actually observed closest to the 50,000 mark do tend to confirm Brian's source, indicating that "model # 2" production ended at that point, and "model # 3" production began thereafter.

Again, additional numbers and observations would help define the runs more closely, but this is a good example of how people working together can do amazing things. With fewer than a half dozen participants, we've conclusively disproven the idea that 52,000 "worm" models were originally produced, and we've fairly closely defined the approximate numbers of the first two NYS models.

I'd say that isn't bad for just a couple of days!

===========================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

It just dawned on me that if I could get what's left of movement # 38,606 from Ted, and combine it with what's left of # 56,454 from Brian, I'd stand a good chance of being able to make a complete "model # 2" movement.

You guys have any interest???

There can't be that many of those left floating around, and it seems like a shame for a possible example to never get restored.

==================================

SM

Mike,
I tried my unpined dial on my friend's ring gear watch and it was a perfect fit. The only differance in the dials is the pinned dial has longer feet. There is even a handwritten number or cymbal marked in red, by the same person on the back of both dials.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

Mike, Steve, Brian, I think the work we did on the history is great.Steve your right not to many of these are left. Will look for the parts i got left on that model 2 Steve and get them to you.Mike i guess 3 or 4 heads are better than 1.Glad to help with this guys. TED

I just wanted to thank everyone for contributing to this thread. As far as I know, there's not a lot of info that has been put together on watches from this company.

Anyway, thought I'd add a couple of pictures of the finished product. Thanks to Ted for forwarding the dial. It needs a little restoration, but looks quite at home on the model 2. The watch is now running well and keeping great time.

Mike Miller

We've seen the pillar plate side... Now the rest of the movement. Very simple. One might consider it a very early "dollar watch."

Mike Miller

Mike,

I have a NYS case for mine too, but I think it's later vintage than the movement. My case is gold filled, with a threaded back and bezel, and I think all the originals for the "worm" models were probably like yours, nickel with hinged backs and bezels. (In fact, it's entirely possible that the case I have may be more appropriate for your watch, and vice versa.)

By the way, if you like, I can (eventually) find a more correct (fine spade) hour and minute hand set for your watch. I'm not sure about the hour hand you're using, but the minute hand looks a lot like one from an 18s Elgin RR model from the 1910s.

The seconds hand, however, does look right.



=======================

SM

PS -- Below is an image of an original NYS ad for the "worm" models, and it's interesting to note that the hands shown in the image are not a correctly "matched pair" either. The minute hand is a "fine spade" style, while the hour hand is a "double-swell spade."