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Hamilton 992B Factory Railroad Cases.
Please note the two Model "A's" shown, first with shoulders (early version) and second with shoulders removed (later version).
This was also true with the Model #11, (no image available with shoulders removed).
Thank you for the illustration. But you've piqued my curiosity. Three of the watches pictured show the dials as being signed Hamilton in block letters but without the expected Railway Special. While this would be a welcome bit of information due to the lower price and seemingly higher availability of these dials, having them signed as such would seem to be in contradiction to what we've previously seen discussed. But then again I learn new things every day!
Thanks, I replaced the #2 image. The model "A" and model #12 images are from "Factory Literature", which I assume is correct.
I believe that most collectors prefer the "RWS" dial, but according to factory literature there was a choice of dials.
All of the images are from Factory Literature".
Excellent work Robert,
Your chart is in line with the current state of what know of cases being shown in factory advertisements. There were in fact other cases available such as the "B" and "C" which are mentioned in factory memos but at this point I am not aware of them being illustrated in any known factory literature.
To answer Tref's question the plain dials show up on watches produced during WWII and in immediate post-war advertising. They are in fact correct and original although as you pointed out many collectors prefer the "Railway Special" dial. Those of us who collect examples of each style consider them important.
1946-47 Hamilton catalog shows "NON-RWS" dials...
Do you know of a pre-war advertisement that also shows the non-Railway Special dial being using on a 992B? That's the info I'm actually after.
Perhaps the source of the illustration that you have so kindly shared was from before the war? Either way, thank you sharing it!
I know Lindell says the two golden rules in building a collection are;
1. Always Buy Condition
2. Always seek out non-argumentative examples.
When the factory shows a non-RWS dial on a 992B in a catalogue dated 1946, how can we argue that any 992B produced up to that point could not have also been fitted with a non-RWS dial? Ed Parson's very nice example immediately comes to mind.
So much time has passed and too little factory literature and documentation remain.
I believe the "Hamilton (1941)Time Book" will verify that the purchaser had a choice of dials from the very beginning of production of the 992B.
That is good to know! Does that same Timebook also happen to list the dial choices that were available?
Keeping it simple, I suggest we all carefully read and ponder the information you see below. This represents the back cover of the 1941 Hamilton Time Book, given free to railroad workers so they could keep a listing of their time on the job and other useful information. When we find them filled in as this one is they represent a unique insight into the times. At some point we will scan and share this interesting document in its entirety.
Carefully read the entire back cover...
Believe it or not, this (Lindell's earlier post) is the first ad illustration I've seen of elusive model 12.
If you locate a Hamilton Model #12 case housing a "Bunn Special" Model 161 movement, it could be original!
See letter below.
Terry has a boxed example model 12 with a 992b with matching mvt & case #. It is not marked Hamilton, but all the numbers match the box.
I subsequently found a 992 in a model 12 case on ebay. It is identical to Terry's and has the same serial number range. It had a second set of case screw marks, so thinking I would correct the re-case by putting a 992b in it, I found the 992b case screws did not match up.
After reading the documentation posted, I checked the second set of case screw marks and BINGO, they are from a Bunn Special.
Lots of stuff we still don't know.
Interesting information, but not the whole story! Read on and carefully study the images in this and the following post...
Although the Case 12 shows up advertised as being "Nickel Chrome" in the color ad I posted above, apparently it or something identical to it came in Yellow Gold-Filled as well. Whether you prefer to call what you see below a "12" or "12.5" or "whatever" this one numbered 8914275 is signed "Hamilton Watch Company Lancaster, Pa." and therefore it is without question, the genuine article.
This Case 12 (?) is a Gold-Filled Hamilton case...
Here are the all matching numbers for this case...
one day we may know the model number of your case (s)...
But I don't think it will be a 12... I believe there is enough existing information to identify what a 12 is....
Starting with the "Crossbar" in 1924 and for as long as factory cases were available in more than one color, they had the same model number for the style regardless of color. For example, the Model 2 came in all four gold-filled colors as well as three solid-gold colors. All were called the Model 2 weren't they?
Why should the Model 12 be any different?
Charlie's nickel case and my gold-filled case are identical in every respect except the content. However, the nickel case is not marked "Hamilton" if I understand correctly, but my gold-filled is as you can plainly see.
Why would not both colors be a Model 12 is my question?
Like I said above....and before...
One Day we May know.........for sure...
at this time we have documentation of what the case is by one Advertisment, and by a label..(yeah sure it is only one)... so to 'declare' the GF case a 12 may be a bit premature...
also note the info from Don that lists 'sundry' cases were purchased ... in addition to the named B and C cases....
It seems the model 12 and 14 were marketed for a price point..... so having a gold filled version contradicts this marketing strategy.
Simply, we need the documentation.
Geez, I wonder how many of these model 12 cases I've casually looked at over the years and assumed they were some after-market recase!!
as did I William.... until i saw a watch with matching box label........
and have not seen another label since.......
Terry can you tell me how your case is marked?
I was bidding on this one yesterday (but came up short) as a model #12 on Ebay/
back of #12 ?
my case marking is similar to the one in the above auction link, number is different...
remind me, i can post images, may have to dig out of safe...
in any event.... Here is the Label........
No need to dig it out Terry. Judging by the closeness between the case and movement serial numbers, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the one in the most recent auction is most likely original and legit, wouldn't you?
Yours (Mvmt C166526), (Case 8003698)
Auct. (Mvmt C167994), (Case 8003718)
What's interesting is that while there were 1,466 movements between yours and the one in the auction, there were apparently only 18 other Model 12 cases used in that group of movements. Might be an indication of the rarity in which the Model 12 was used to case 992Bs. Or it could mean something is amiss, though with only one set of screw marks in the auction case, and with the movement numbers of yours and it being as close as they are, it would be a considerable coincidence if the movement and case in the auction were a later marriage. Or so I would guess.
It would be cool to know how they decided which model case to use in order to case each movement.
Any of the SWAG's above make sense do you think?
Oh, and I was also wondering if yours was marked with the same <Defiance> signature, in the same format used in the case in the auction.
the stamp is the same... the number is different.... just like i said above...
a second non boxed example i just picked up also has the same stamp... but different number... and has an 080 dial.
we do not know how the cases were distributed in the factory... one assembler may have gotten the cases at the top of the package, others at the bottom....
it was not necessarily first in first out...
I have consecutive serial number 992B in model 11 cases that the serials are about 70-80 apart.. so go figure...
they were purchased at different times and are not 'top shelf' condition watches......
I would hope to shout that the numbers are different, they're they same model case but on different watches after all
When you say that your two each has an 080 dial, would those be RWS dials or just Hamilton signed like the one in the 1947 catalogue?
No RWS signature...
as a matter of fact... i have yet to see an 080 dial signed RWS .... or an 081 dial signed RWS ... and am still looking..
Note the revision dates on the blueprints... the orignial blueprint has yet to show...
Hmmm. There is only one date on my image of the 080 blueprint. All it shows is the date of 12/3/41. Is that a revision date, or the orginal date?
What does yours show?
Because one of the dates on my image of the 081 blueprint is slightly different than the dates you listed, I'm assuming what you provided came from your 080 blueprint. Here's mine.
What date is different?
yours lacks the later dates, so it is earlier....
and may be the initial print...
I have been searching for some time for one of these marked RWS .....
they do not appear... even with boxed examples showing the 080 dial (one example furnished to me was a one owner ...)
So for some reason it appears Hamilton did not follow the prints.....
The most recent date on the 081 blueprint image I have is 7-15-61.
Could it be that Hamilton never produced a SS Porcelain RWS dial, and like you said they just used the 080 part number for the non-RWS dial, albeit inaccurately?
oh.. i see ... u jumped dials on me...
my posting above with the 3 dates is in response to your post of 080 dial date...
i have not got to the 081 dial.. yet...
RE: no rws....
and yes... the lack of existing examples seem to support that conclusion.......
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