Hey Guys check this out.

I just posted on eBay the highest known serial number 992B at this time. Serial number is C525298.

Ebay Item Number 130104534529

Wow, I mean...wow! What a piece of RR and Hamilton history. Even if a later one is found, to have one so late is just great.

Why does the serial number look as if it was engraved with a Dremel tool? Also why is there no black paint in the numbers as it is in all the other lettering?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Joe

Sham's watch is within just a relatively few serial numbers of the unused Hamilton plates that surface from time to time. The problem is that we don't know exactly where the finished watches ended and where the unused plates began.

Because of the design of the 992B, it would be a simple matter to turn any of those unused plates into a working movement. Samie Smith, Frank K. or I could do so with any 4th signature 992B and an afternoon.

And... the world being what it is.... SOMEONE is going to do exactly that and put some of those watches into collector hands.

I would feel much more secure if that watch was accompanied by a box and label (although they too can be faked). It is no reflection upon Sham to ask for some history under these circumstances.

In answer to Joseph's comment about the quality of the serial numbers....

The unfinished plates that I bought look very similar and they are genuine.

But that only begs the question. Obviously, there could be a difference in appearance between unfinished plates and a finished Hamilton movement. Or maybe not. We don't really know the level of quality control that was prevailing at Hamilton in the last hours of it's US manufacturing operation.

I was curious about that, too and was wondering if any boxed or documented completed examples showed the rough un-painted serials like this one?

Like Peter said, anything was probably possible as the curtain lowered at Hamilton.

Hmmm.

Actually, I don't know what happened as they stopped US. production.

I hate to be a spoil-sport. But, even great art-galleries have had multi-million dollar painting challenged as fakes.

Here's what we DO know:

1. Hamilton Watch was a well-run and profitable company that kept meticulous records of each of their watches, throughout their history.

2. The end of US manufacture of pocket-watches did NOT mean the end of the company. The company continued for years, profitably outsourced their pocket-watch production, but continued to sell under their brand name. The end of US production did NOT necessarily mean chaos.

3. The last US Hamilton pocket-watches would have been assembled around 1970... well into our current era of state and federal taxation, product liability, computer tracking, etc. These watches would have been subjected to far MORE record keeping than earlier watches... not less.

Under the circumstances above, I think it is entirely reasonable to, at least, presume that there were multiple records kept of that watch's production. If it is presented as an isolated item, without records, then I think it reasonable to inquire about the history of that item and why it is not fully documented.

That does not mean that the seller is suspect but it does mean that the item itself, is tainted with a very high burden of proving its authenticity. This is particularly true because its design was such that fabricating a fake would be entirely too simple.

I agree... I have later 992B's that are not filled in.

But... your example pretty much illustrates my point about serial numbers on finished Hamilton watches.

I have to note that the numbers on Sham's watch more resemble those on my unfinished plates than on Hamilton finished watches that I've seen.

Hey Guys. Maybe this will help you to understand some of this. I have in my collection for some time another 992B serial number C524561. Which is over 700 serial numbers below the one I have on ebay. If you look close you will notice the same identical style serial number ingraved, and Thank You Lindell for pointing out this one also is not filled with black.

While I'm not qualified to make any judgments about the specific watch being discussed, I can comment on Hamilton in the 1970s. Peter is absolutely correct that shutting down US production in 1969 did not end the company. Hamilton has been in continuous operation ever since, albeit under Swiss ownership (initially in stages) since 1972.

Records were no doubt kept, however it is unlikely they survive. The library has an extensive archive of Hamilton records in part because many were donated by Hamilton years ago, and in part because Dr. Robert Ravel saved many from destruction and later donated them.

The sad fact is that while "chaos" may be a bit strong a term, the company was in disarray in the early 1970s. Literally TONS of material and records were dumped. Bob Ravel got many truckloads of such things -- both finished and unfinished parts, machinery, as well as the files, record books, and other contents of the research and advertising departments. I would assume that the unfinished 992B pillar plates that turn up are out of his stash, which was split up after he died and is still being sold piecemeal on eBay all the time. The amount of material he had in storage is absolutely mind-boggling. (I'll forever be grateful to him for saving so much of Hamilton's history. He was a dear friend, but I digress.)

If production records on the 992B were among the materials he got, they may survive at the library. But many Hamilton retirees have told me stories of throwing tons of parts and papers away in dumpsters over the years. An untold amount of material was trashed only about 10 years ago when they moved out of the old R&D building on Wheatland Ave. in Lancaster.

It's a peculiar fact that there is less known about Hamilton's operations in the 1970s and 1980s than about the 1890s-1950s. Even catalogs were few and far between during the years surrounding and following the change of ownership. A huge amount of important history was callously discarded.

Today the only materials that Hamilton has are things that were acquired in recent years, as they belatedly attempt to rebuild their historic archives. The entire "museum collection" of watches was assembled in the last 15 years. All of the catalogs and ads they have in their offices in Weehawken, NJ were also acquired in that time. Their own files are so stripped that they cannot even look up a case reference number from the 1980s to determine the model. All of that was dumped by previous company officials, much to the regret of the current management, which is very enlightened about the significance of having such a long heritage. (I'm extremely familiar with all of this since I've been their official historian for 9 years, and have spent quite a bit of time in their current offices. I also helped them acquire some of their collection.)

Consequently lack of documentation on this watch may or may not mean anything, unfortunately.

This is really confusing. The "Last 992B"that Samie found was only 40 numbers away but it had the serial number painted. Who made the decision on whether to paint or not?

Joe

Lindell you have convinced ME!!! It is amazing what a slightly different angle does to photos.

Joe

Excellent comparison photos.

That close and directly lit picture really...sheds some light.

For fun I took another picture of the serial number, it is amazing the difference between two pictures of the same movement. Thank you everyone for helping to solve the issue.

This watch reminds me very much of the NOS Model 15 992B serial number C519924 that I sold last June to a fellow member. It also had the clear serial number and the red stamp inside the case back. This watch has never been carried.

Sham is one of the best on ebaY and only sells high quality watches. Having owned 8 992Bs, I believe this to be a legitimate example of a NOS Hamilton 992B.

Good luck with the auction Sham!

John III

Hi John. As always you are very kind and supportive. Thank you so much.

Well, in case anyone has been wondering what became of this watch, I'm pleased to report that I am the lucky (and happy) buyer. I felt this would make a nice pairing with my Hamilton grade 932, serial number 28 -- one watch from the first day of production, and another from the last.

I received the 992B today. Due to lack of time Sham had not overhauled this watch prior to selling it, and I'm very glad he didn't. This gave me a chance to study the watch in its untouched and unrestored condition. I just spent over an hour taking it apart and going over it in extreme detail, under a 10x loupe. I am categorically convinced that this is 100% factory original.

There are a number of things that lead to that conclusion. The watch is essentially in new-old-stock condition. It does not appear to have had any use. What few very faint scuffs there are on the case back could result from sitting in a drawer. The original brushing is intact. The movement has no marks or scratches of any kind and the screws are unmarred. The luster of the train and balance bridge exactly match that of the pillar plate.

But the key is the oil residue in the jewels. This 992B shows every sign of a watch that has not been serviced in decades, if ever. The original oil has dried out, leaving a gummy residue that is apparent in every jewel. The nature and amount of this residue is identical throughout the watch, whether in the pillar plate or train bridge. This is also a sign of old-fashioned oil -- modern watch oils dry out without leaving the kind of sticky residue that old oils had.

The perfect condition of every pivot, every gear, every screw, and every plate shows that this movement is untouched. It's a true time capsule.

My intention had been to clean and overhaul the watch but I have changed my mind. I've reassembled it extremely carefully and I'm leaving it just as it is, with the single exception of cleaning some light, sticky corrosion on the hour wheel, cannon pinion, and fourth wheel chaton. I don't know if it relates to the melamine dial, but something caused this gummy green corrosion to form in the holes for the hands. There is none anywhere else.

Overall I feel the original condition is a very important part of the watch's history and should be preserved. Needless to say, I would not use this as a regular timepiece anyway. Rather, it is a museum piece.

Rene
Glad you won the late 992b the late one i owned i sold to Lindell i did service it and like yours i don,t think it had ever been serviced or packed it was like the day it left the hamilton factory..

The one i bought came from a estate sale here in kentucky i bought it from a man i call mr. Haney he is like the guy that was on the old tv show green acres,,he buys any and everthing and when he comes up with a watch he calls me.

I Don,t think we will see any serial#,s higher than yours and the one Lindell has they were among the last of the great American railroad watches.

I'm also glad it is going to a good home where it will be appreciated. That's a honey of a watch.

Congrats Rene,
A very nice 992B and important one. I am glad it found a good home.
Enjoy---Tony