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Who Made this masterpiece? Longines, Gruen, Omega? "Click" to Login or Register 
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
A fully cased and working 16s "Roos J Haseltine" (Kokomo, IN) bubbled to the surface on eBay and nobody bid it so I have this RJH Mystery piece. I took out the movement to remove the dial . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
Peered under the dial to see who made it. All I found was a serial number and the distinct feeling that this was a pretty good movement because it has a stopworks on the motor barrel . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
So, I turned it over to look for more stuff in the movement . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
found a 1900 period serial number which combinedwith the "americanized" 3 pin dial suggest it could be an Omegs, Longines or even mebbe Gruen . . .

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
And the balance cock has this interesting "Cross" with another (calibre) number stamped on the top cap jewel. ANYBODY, ANY IDEAS WHO MADE THIS?!

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Member 1335
Picture of Tom Brunton
posted
well David,I believe that your cross is the cross of Switzerland ,now if the european experts like Ethan,John , and Gerald were to drop in, you'd be well on your way in the search for your maker Big Grin
 
Posts: 1746 | Location: Aylmer, Ontario in Canada | Registered: December 15, 2009
IHC Life Member
Picture of Ethan Lipsig
posted
Thanks Tom for the undeserved compliment, but I don't recognize this movement.
 
Posts: 1414 | Location: Pasadena, California USA | Registered: November 11, 2005
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
I should add that the pallet fork has laminated pallet Jewels which I find to be a very costly but effective construction.
 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
posted
David,
No idea who made the watch, but Rolex and IWC amangst a few others made movements with similar plate layouts.
There was also another topic recently with photo's of a very similar movement, but can't find it now?

The raw ebauches would be supplied to manufacturers by particular foundries, and I often wonder if the plate styles were a stylisitic fad of the day similar to what we have in the automotive industry today.

Very often, specific makers of a certain 'ilk' can be defined by the plate and bridge designs - such as Patek, Longines, Meylan etc, which typically use an unusual split mainspring barrel bridge.

Anyway, back to your example!

The cross on the balance cock is the Swiss patent mark, and often accompanied by the word 'Brevet'
The number engraved opposite is the patent number!

Checking the international patents database, the only Swiss patent filed under the number '16831' was attributed to a Frenchman named Charles Brisebard, the title of the patent being 'Raquette Brisebard'

The 'Raquette' is the index lever!

If you look closely at the index lever arrangement, you may find it is in two pieces: a traditional shaped lever with a full ring, and an open ended 'Horseshoe' shaped ring which carries either the 'boot' or 'Curb Pins' - can't see quite what's in there from the photo!

My guess is, this would allow the curb or boot to be set for timing the watch (hairspring) and allow the index lever to be centralised to the index scale without having to mess around re-pinning the hairspring.
This would enable fairly fine adjustments after installing a freshly vibrated hairspring and keep the index central.
It would also serve as a benchmark of future performance following service if the datum was kept.

Interestingly, Mid C20th watches onwards, of both wrist and pockets using KIF or Incabloc shock protection devices, were fitted with a refinement of this device, which kept the double index lever system, except one ring is attached to and moves the boot, and the other, the hairspring stud.

The advantage here, is that a watch can be set in beat without moving the hairspring collet on the staff, and again, to regulate the hairspring without having to mess with re-pinning the hairspring.
I wonder if Brisebard got any credit for it?

The data below was copied from the patents database.


John

****************************************

Raquette Brisebard
Publication number: CH16831 (A)
Publication date: 1899-02-15
Inventor(s): BRISEBARD CHARLES [FR] + (CHARLES BRISEBARD,)
Applicant(s): BRISEBARD CHARLES [FR] + (BRISEBARD, CHARLES)
Classification:
- international: G04B18/02; G04B18/00
- European: G04B18/02D
Application number: CHD16831 18980521
Priority number(s): CHT16831 18980521
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: Northern England, United Kingdom | Registered: January 07, 2006
posted
The following data is also relating to this patent, with the index arrangement being specified at the bottom..

John

**********************************************************


PHYSICS G
HOROLOGY G04
MECHANICALLY-DRIVEN CLOCKS OR WATCHES; MECHANICAL PARTS OF CLOCKS OR WATCHES IN GENERAL; TIME PIECES USING THE POSITION OF THE SUN, MOON OR STARS (spring- or weight-driven mechanisms in general F03G; electromechanical clocks or watches G04C; electromechanical clocks with attached or built-in means operating any device at pre-selected times or after predetermined time intervals G04C23/00 ; clocks or watches with stop devices G04F7/08) G04B
Mechanisms for setting frequency [N: (for stabilising frequency G04B17/00)] [N0410] G04B18
G04B18/00


Regulator [N: or adjustment] devices; Indexing devices, [N: e.g. raquettes] [N0410] G04B18/02
[N: Fixing of the indexing device] [N0410] G04B18/02D
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: Northern England, United Kingdom | Registered: January 07, 2006
posted
These are the notes pertaining to this patent number, and the devices it covers.

John

[N: Regulating mechanisms where the movement is maintained by pneumatic means (oscillation generation by pneumatic means G04F5/12)] G04B17/00B

Oscillators acting by gravity, e.g. pendulum swinging in a plane [N: setting the pendulum to the required length G04B17/12B ; temperature compensation for pendulums G04B17/22C ; bearings in general, e.g. knife-edge G04B31/00 ; clocks fitted in pendulums G04B45/04B ; imitation pendulums driven by the clock mechanism G04B45/00H2 , G04B45/00H3 ; pendulum ornamentation G04B45/00H4 ; contacts actuated by a pendulum G04C13/06B ; measurement of force with a pendulum G01V7/12] G04B17/02
[N: Composite and multiple pendulums; Synchronisation of mechanical pendulums, e.g. electrical synchronisation G03C3/02K ; pendulum systems G04C13/02K] G04B17/02B

Oscillators acting by spring tension G04B17/04
[N: with oscillating blade springs (mechanical oscillations maintained by electro-magnetic means, e.g. tuning forks G04C3/10] G04B17/04B

Oscillators with hairsprings, e.g. balance
[N: electrically driven balances G04C3/04 ; contacts actuated by a balance G04C13/06B] G04B17/06

[N: Balance construction (balances with frequency adjustment screw G04B17/12C ; balances with temperature compensation G04B17/22B ; balancing devices G04B17/28)] G04B17/06B

[N: Manufacture of the spiral spring (locking of the spiral spring by the regulating lever G04B17/14F ; spiral spring with temperature compensation G04B17/22R ; fixation of the spiral spring on the collet G04B17/32 ; mainspring G04B1/14)] G04B17/06C

Oscillators with coil springs stretched and unstretched axially G04B17/08

Oscillators with torsion strips or springs acting in the same manner as torsion strips, e.g. weight oscillating in a horizontal plane

[N: electrically driven torsion pendulum G04C3/033] G04B17/10

Compensation of mechanisms for stabilising frequency G04B17/20 for the effect of variations of temperature

[N: alloys with small expansion coefficient C21C , C22C ; adjustment of the regulator dependant on adjustment of the hands G04B17/14K ; depending on the difference in time with a comparison clockwork G04C11/00H] G04B17/22

[N: with balances (construction of balances G04B17/06B)] G04B17/22B

[N: with pendulums (construction of pendulums G04B17/02 ; setting frequency on the pendulum G04B17/12B)] G04B17/22C

[N: composition and manufacture of the material used (composition and manufacture of hairsprings G04B17/06C ; of springs G04B1/14R ; anti-magnetic alloys G04B43/00R ; ferrous alloys C22C ; non-ferrous alloys C22C , B22F)] G04B17/22R for the effect of variations of atmospheric pressure G04B17/24 for the effect of variations of the impulses G04B17/26 for the effect of unbalance of the weights, e.g. tourbillon [

N: construction of the balance G04B17/06B ; setting the frequency by adjusting devices fixed on the balance G04B17/12C] G04B17/28

[N: Tourbillons or carrousels] [C0410] G04B17/28B
Rotating governors, e.g. centrifugal governors, fan governors (for striking mechnanisms G04B21/06)

[N: electrically driven G04C3/033B] G04B17/30
Component parts or constructional details, e.g. collet, stud, [N: virole or piton] [C0410] G04B17/32

[N: for fastening the hairspring in a fixed position, e.g. using a block] [C0410] G04B17/32C
for fastening the hairspring onto the balance [N0410] G04B17/34

[N: Details of the spiral roll] [N0410] G04B17/34B

PHYSICS G
HOROLOGY G04
MECHANICALLY-DRIVEN CLOCKS OR WATCHES; MECHANICAL PARTS OF CLOCKS OR WATCHES IN GENERAL; TIME PIECES USING THE POSITION OF THE SUN, MOON OR STARS (spring- or weight-driven mechanisms in general F03G; electromechanical clocks or watches G04C; electromechanical clocks with attached or built-in means operating any device at pre-selected times or after predetermined time intervals G04C23/00 ; clocks or watches with stop devices G04F7/08) G04B
Mechanisms for stabilising frequency [N: (for setting frequency G04B18/00 ; magnetic G04C5/00B ; in striking mechanisms G04B21/06 ; stopping and regulating of the running G04B23/02D ; electrically driven mechanical regulation G04B3/16 ; electrical and thermo-electric regulating mechanisms G04C5/00)] [C0410] G04B17
G04B17/00



[N: Regulating mechanisms where the movement is maintained by pneumatic means (oscillation generation by pneumatic means G04F5/12)] G04B17/00B
Oscillators acting by gravity, e.g. pendulum swinging in a plane
[N: setting the pendulum to the required length G04B17/12B ; temperature compensation for pendulums G04B17/22C ; bearings in general, e.g. knife-edge G04B31/00 ; clocks fitted in pendulums G04B45/04B ; imitation pendulums driven by the clock mechanism G04B45/00H2 , G04B45/00H3 ; pendulum ornamentation G04B45/00H4 ; contacts actuated by a pendulum G04C13/06B ; measurement of force with a pendulum G01V7/12] G04B17/02

[N: Composite and multiple pendulums; Synchronisation of mechanical pendulums, e.g. electrical synchronisation G03C3/02K ; pendulum systems G04C13/02K] G04B17/02B

Oscillators acting by spring tension G04B17/04

[N: with oscillating blade springs (mechanical oscillations maintained by electro-magnetic means, e.g. tuning forks G04C3/10] G04B17/04B

Oscillators with hairsprings, e.g. balance [N: electrically driven balances G04C3/04 ; contacts actuated by a balance G04C13/06B] G04B17/06

[N: Balance construction (balances with frequency adjustment screw G04B17/12C ; balances with temperature compensation G04B17/22B ; balancing devices G04B17/28)] G04B17/06B

[N: Manufacture of the spiral spring (locking of the spiral spring by the regulating lever G04B17/14F ; spiral spring with temperature compensation G04B17/22R ; fixation of the spiral spring on the collet G04B17/32 ; mainspring G04B1/14)] G04B17/06C

Oscillators with coil springs stretched and unstretched axially G04B17/08

Oscillators with torsion strips or springs acting in the same manner as torsion strips, e.g. weight oscillating in a horizontal plane

[N: electrically driven torsion pendulum G04C3/033] G04B17/10

Compensation of mechanisms for stabilising frequency G04B17/20 for the effect of variations of temperature [N: alloys with small expansion coefficient C21C , C22C ; adjustment of the regulator dependant on adjustment of the hands G04B17/14K ; depending on the difference in time with a comparison clockwork G04C11/00H] G04B17/22

[N: with balances (construction of balances G04B17/06B)] G04B17/22B

[N: with pendulums (construction of pendulums G04B17/02 ; setting frequency on the pendulum G04B17/12B)] G04B17/22C

[N: composition and manufacture of the material used (composition and manufacture of hairsprings G04B17/06C ; of springs G04B1/14R ; anti-magnetic alloys G04B43/00R ; ferrous alloys C22C ; non-ferrous alloys C22C , B22F)] G04B17/22R for the effect of variations of atmospheric pressure G04B17/24 for the effect of variations of the impulses G04B17/26 for the effect of unbalance of the weights, e.g. tourbillon

[N: construction of the balance G04B17/06B ; setting the frequency by adjusting devices fixed on the balance G04B17/12C] G04B17/28

[N: Tourbillons or carrousels] [C0410] G04B17/28B Rotating governors, e.g. centrifugal governors, fan governors (for striking mechnanisms G04B21/06)[N: electrically driven G04C3/033B] G04B17/30 Component parts or constructional details, e.g. collet, stud, [N: virole or piton] [C0410] G04B17/32

[N: for fastening the hairspring in a fixed position, e.g. using a block] [C0410] G04B17/32C for fastening the hairspring onto the balance [N0410] G04B17/34

[N: Details of the spiral roll] [N0410] G04B17/34B
 
Posts: 1282 | Location: Northern England, United Kingdom | Registered: January 07, 2006
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
Excellent Observation John as I see an Index lever as a second outer ring that has the regulator pins attached to it and it is clamped to the regulator whip on the balance cock.

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member

Picture of Jerry King
posted
Thank you David for bringing this very interesting string to the European Forum....Boy!!!you sure are good at illustration with description....you certainly have a way with words....

Thanks to you also John for your very interesting and informative answer to Dave's question, only here at IHC185 will one find as much information being freely given by so many....

Thanks again to you both, you are a very valuable asset to IHC185 and we're all lucky to have you with us....

Regards,

Jerry
 
Posts: 2828 | Location: California in the USA | Registered: June 23, 2008
IHC Member 1691
posted
David, I came across this while delving in to an issue I have with opening a Longines pocket watch mainspring barrel ( here - looking for any tips) and your movement looks similar to mine, see below.

Regards

Peter

Movement...

 
Posts: 255 | Location: Melbourne in Australia | Registered: March 19, 2012
IHC Member 1691
posted
Sub-dial...

 
Posts: 255 | Location: Melbourne in Australia | Registered: March 19, 2012
IHC Member 1691
posted
Front and case...

 
Posts: 255 | Location: Melbourne in Australia | Registered: March 19, 2012
posted
Without checking my Longines archives it's one of the usual suspects. Helpful hint: Longines did quite the business in the private label market and the spotted finish is very often seen on their movements.
 
Posts: 653 | Location: St Paul, Minnesota in the USA | Registered: May 04, 2004
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