Here are some photos of my Great great Grandmothers watch. I inherited it from my grandmother when she died in 1968. It belonged to here great grandmother. There is no serial number or watchmakers name on it that I can see. It has a separate case it fits into. Everything looks original. Can anyone tell me the make etc? It looks swiss to me.

Here is the movement.

Here is another photo

Here are the backs of the cases

Here is the inscription on the inner back cover. I am not sure what it says or what it means. Can anyone translate?

Ernie, your watch looks like a typical Swiss movement of its era. The cuvette states that it is by "Vacheron," and that it has a 4 jewel cylinder escapement. I doubt that the "Vacheron," was Vacheron & Constantin. There were a number of watchmaking Vacherons.

Ethan:

Thank you for the information. Do you think there is a serial number under the dial?

Other than having value as an heirloom do you think it is worth restoring?

Ernie

Ernie,

As Ethan has mentioned, it is a Swiss movement, and has a Cylinder type escapement, the '4 Rubis' means 4 Ruby jewels, which will be on the balance pivots and endstones.

I'd go along with Ethan part way on the Vacheron link because this watch would pre-date the Vacheron & Constantin merger by quite a while(whenever that happened).
However, I would put more money on there being a link with later watchmaking Vacheron-Constantin - (which most folks are more familiar with), than there not being, but the guy that made your watch is just as likely to have been a retail jeweller as a watchmaker.

There is likely to be a proprtion of 'hand manufacture' of the watch, which you can ascertain by removing the dial.
The pivot holes in the dial plate will have visible circular scribe marks across the centres where the watchmaker planted the train prior to drilling the holes.
Unless Vacheron has put a trademark somehwere, it's unlikely you'll determine who actually made it.
These types are often as anonymous as they come.

If I could add a word of caution though when discussing familiar watchmaking names - especially when based in a small region, and that is Never assume a watchmaker isn't associated to another just because a watch bearing that name looks less 'sophisticated' than the more famous later movements which tend to capture our attention.

Without the big money injections of wealthy famous Swiss families, many of those 'famous names' would have gone to the wall in the mid 1900's.

On a genealogical note, and I think Tom and Sheila would bear this out with me, and that is 'Always take family folklore with a pinch of salt'!
I would date your watch to around the mid 1880's mainly because of the knife edge dial screws.
I could see your Great Grandmother owning the watch, depending upon her age when she died, but I can't really see it being passed down to her via her mother, Grandmother and Great grandmother when she was possibly born around 1890's to 1900's herslf.
I'm really sorry if this sounds a little cruel, but it's an example of how little fibs can turn into works of fiction which can sometimes cause family hurt and doubts when the real facts are turned up.

Is the watch worth restoring - Absolutely.
With known family provenance, it's intrinsically priceless, regardless of what anyone thinks of the actual watch.
Get it cleaned up and listen to it ticking away just as your ancestor's would have done

I still have my Great Grandmother's watch, and it's a Swiss cylinder fob watch just like yours.
It's also the watch which sparked off my entry into watch collecting and repairing, and I'll never part with it until it's time to pass it to my next of kin.
It may be a lowly Swiss cylinder, but it's still the most valuable watch I own!

John

I have no watchmaking skills, so I cannot comment on what you would find under the dial.

Since I don't do any work on my watches, I can only comment on the economics of restoration from the perspective of what I find it costs to have professionals work on watches.

I would highly value the family connection your watch has. However, if I were to ignore that and just look at the economics, restoration hardly seems appropriate, if even possible (if it needs parts, they could be hard to find). The movement does not appear to be unusual or high grade. The case is silver and rather battered. The dial is in very bad shape. The hands are missing. At the prices I would have to pay, I can easily see spending $200 or more to service the watch, clean and remove dents from the case, replace the hands, and address the dial, all for a watch that, at best, likely wouldn't be worth what you spent -- except to you, for sentimental reasons.

As an example of its type and in purely commercial terms, you're probably right, but this is no Ordinary watch!

I agree with the comment on the type of movement, yes, it is a lowly cylinder, and maybe not worth big bucks restoration by a 'Pro' 'per se', but that depends upon whether Ernie can do much of the work himself.
And, it's still got 'Vacheron' engraved on the inner Cuve!

My comments were though, based entirely around the family provenance, which to my mind is it's main redeaming feature.

If the cylinder or pivots are broken, that could make a movement repair prohibitively expensive to repair, but if the balance swings freely, chances are it will run after a clean and new mainspring.
We don't know the actual condition of the watch at this point anyway!

The case is in Beautiful condition! Where is it 'Dented'?
The outer tin protector may be a touch beat up, but that's preserved the silver case.
The cartouche is as crisp as the day it was hand engraved, and there appears to be no damage or dings anywhere.
A dunking in 'silver dip', careful clean with silver polish and a new crystal will transform it.

I have seen damaged dials lovingly bleached and cleaned up and posted on this venue in similar condition to the dial on this watch!
It is though, the dial that Ernie's family will have read frequently - no small point!
Bleach out the crud and a lot of those lines will barely be noticeable.

Hands aren't insurmountable either, I have several pairs here that could probably match if I knew the pivot sizes - ditto the bevel edged mineral crystal that it should have.

It all comes down to how much value Ernie places in that watch, it having been passed on to him as a family heirloom, which Is what it Is.

John

You may be right about the case. I was paying too much attention to the outer pair case.

However, you misconstrued my remarks. I wholly agree that if the watch has sentimental value, it's probably worth what it would cost to restore it. Moreover, even if the watch had no sentimental value, it's probably worth restoring unless it is relegated to being a parts movement. Anyone who knows me knows that I can barely tolerate anything I own being in less than the best condition I can put it in. I could cite numerous examples of uneconomic repairs I have had made.

The only point I was trying to make to Ernie is that the amount he would have to spend to have professionals restore the watch might be more than the watch would be worth post-restoration if he were to sell the watch.

Hi John and Ethan:

Thank you so much for your comments. I really appreciate your sincerity

My Great Great grandmother was born in 1837 and died in 1917. I am not sure of the progression of inheritance so I am not sure if my Great Grandmother got it from her mother etc. I do know that my Grandmother who was born in 1892 and died in 1968 had the watch when I was just a little boy. I always admired the watch. One day when I was a child, I remember asking her if I could have that watch someday. When she died, my dad, aunts and uncles found the watch in a box in her dresser with my name on it.

I can repair the case and the dial. I may need someone to work on the movement. I also need some hands. It doesn't appear to have a second’s chapter. I would like to find a silver clasp for the chain too.

You are right, it may be just a lowly watch but to me it is priceless. If I never get it running it will remain one of my most prized possessions.

Ernie, I really enjoyed your descriptions here and the history behind this watch. "Fixing" it is only to make yourself feel better about seeing it work. This piece has already marked the lifetimes of three generations. I see nothing wrong with letting it "rest".

As this watch has the "modern" swiss cam screw dial pin locks, it is probably about perfect as a gift to your Great Grandmother around the 1870-80's. Given her world at that time, having such a little beauty was special indeed, nobody in her time would have said anything less than "what a fine watch you have".

For 150 years someone has carried it faithfully and used it well.

That your grandmother made especially sure that you would get it adds much to the spiritual value of the piece that you alone have been asked protect and preserve.

I mentioned this question over here in germany at The Pocketwatch Forum.

They say (also not for sure) that it could be an Vacheron and Constantin. That the inscription Vacheron Geneve and only the inner back cover was used until 1880.

Mr. Roland Ranfft posted the following link and say'd that the art of contruction seems very identical (difference is that the watch shown there has 8 rubis). The watch shown there has also an Cylinder type escapement.

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&&2...cheron_Constantin_13

Here is the thread at the german forum:

http://www.lucrum.ch/pocketwatch/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3739

That's a very nice example on the first link André, thanks for posting it.
The second link goes to a log-in page though.

Best regards

John

I took the dial off and cleaned it up with Comet Cleaner. It improved it a lot. I also found a serial number under it. It is serial number 10509.

It's looking good Ernie, I think your Grandmother will be smiling down on you for this

Best regards

John

What a great watch you have there Ernie, and an even greater story....PRICELESS!

You mentioned you need a silver clasp for the chain. Do you mean a sterling silver clasp or a silvertone clasp. If you mean 'sterling', I have one that you can have, if you send me your address I will send it to you.
Here's a picture of it....It is hallmarked as being made in London....

Regards,
Jerry

jerrydk7@msn.com

That's a great gesture Jerry, and to help it along, I'm fairly sure I've a Sterling silver 'T' bar here which would look good on the other end.

John

John, Ernie sent me the chain and I will post a picture of it, with Ernie's permission of course, when I am through with it....

Regards,
Jerry

John:

Sure john, Post the pictures. Even do a before and after.

Ernie

Here is my Great grandmothers chain after Jerry restored it.