John, I agree with you that the regulator arm is missing but just in case some playfull watchmaker has had a go at converting this into a freesprung I would like to ask the following questions if I may. You mentioned that "unless the hairspring is a breguet ovecoil or a helical type" it would not work as a freesprung. Is there a way for us simple types to recognise this type of hairspring from a regular one. Also regardes timing this particular watch could it be achieved by adding or removing timing washers rather than messing with the hairspring or is that the rough way of doing things.

Irwin,

Many thanks for your comments and appreciation, and I'm pleased you're finding the posts useful.

Your questions are bang on target actually, and are valid observations. I'm potentially straying into shark infested waters here, as my knowledge isn't that great about Freesprung's, there being so little info dedicated to them.

If anyone knows of any good sources of reference please chime in, I do have an interest in them as I'm sure will many others!

I'll answer your question as best I can, but please bear in mind these are my own observations based on what scant information I've been able to find on them.

**Could it possibly be the case that this watch was made into a freesprung by a later watchmaker using parts from elsewhere?**

I doubt it, even though it Could be done!. Now that you've confirmed it has an overcoil type hairspring, then in Principle, the watch will be acting nearer to that of a 'Freesprung'........ but that is where the similarity ends - they're chalk and cheese as timepieces go!

Unless the movement has been seriously modified, it will Never function with true 'Freesprung' accuracy, simply because the watch would never have been manufactured to the standards required of a Freesprung watch or with the same components.

As far as I'm aware, (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), most Freesprung watches were manufactured to meet military standards of the day, and when put into service, were certified to meet or exceed the standards required of them. They would no doubt also have been entrusted to master watchmakers for service and repair at frequent intervals.

Whether they were manufactured for civilians too, I've no idea, but a purchaser would have needed to be very well heeled indeed to buy and maintain one properly - ditto today!.

Watches similar to your Benson, were manufactured for the public at large, (that could afford them) and assumed to be serviced - possibly infrequently, by the average watchmaker to be found in any town or city - a high percentage of whom would not have had the skills to produce a watch that would perform to the standard required of a Freesprung. That situation is just as true now as it was in the 19th & 20th Century.

My view is that unless it was a labour of love or someone with a big wedge of cash to burn, it would be a completely unviable proposition financially to convert an English Lever watch of this type to a True Freesprung - and have it perform to the standards expected of it's ilk ............. but I'll wager someone somewhere on the planet has had a go!

Sorry Irwin, I don't think you've struck gold this time, but Benson's are nice all the same.

Thanks for posting it for us to see.



Stephan, to take your comments next:

**Is there a way for us simple types to recognise this type of hairspring from a regular one. Also regardes timing this particular watch could it be achieved by adding or removing timing washers rather than messing with the hairspring or is that the rough way of doing things.**

Ouch, I think 'Simple types' is being a tad unkind ......... less experienced and willing to learn is good though ........... and I count myself as being in that group!

What I would say to anyone wanting a better understanding of escapement theory, is get hold of copies of books authored by notable horologists such as W.J.Gazely, Henry Fried, Dr James C. Pellaton and T.R.Robinson. The one book on my bookshelf dedicated to hairspringing and positional adjustments is 'Practical Watch Adjusting', by Donald De Carle. All old books but a mine of information and technique. There are many others published too, so it would be good to hear some recommendations.

I've posted below, photo's of a couple of balances with hairsprings which should show the differences reasonably clearly. The spring on the left is an 'Overcoil' as attributed to Breguet, and the other a 'Flat Spiral'. I also have one with a Helical spring somewhere and will post one of that too if I manage to unearth it.

Essentially, a Flat spiral is just that, it sprials outwards from the centre, is placed through curb pins (or a combination boot and curb pin) and into the stud on the balance cock - all in one plane - Flat!.

An Overcoil or a Breguet Overcoil (your choice, whichever you wish to call them), starts of as a flat type, but at some point has the final coil curved upwards then parallel to, and across the spring, to again pass through either curb pins or a combination boot / curb pin and into the retaining stud.

I took a quick look in De Carle's book, and he shows illustrations of no less than 220 or so different curve profiles for an overcoil (left or right hand curves) and doubtless there are many more - which gives some idea just how complex this subject is!.

To be honest, manipulation and callibration of hairsprings is a black art that I've never really mastered - mostly from lack of practice (and shakey hands). I've very often also come away from reading authoritative texts on the subject feeling that I know even less than I started with ....... great subject for curing insomnia too which doesn't help!

I guess Irwin Could time his watch using washers and it would be his choice, but I'm not certain that technicians regulating a Freesprung in their day would have used them. My guess is, they'd have made different weight screws in matched pairs and swapped them, but that would have been to deal with position errors rather than to avoid tweaking and vibrating a hairspring .......... and I Really Really Don't wanna go there ........................

Hope this helps!

Best regards

John

John, you asked for more information about, and more detailed photos of, the Usher & Cole escapement. It is an English side lever escapement. The escape wheel teeth are club shaped. See the photos that follow.

Closer in

A closer view.

Now, without the balance bridge and balance wheel.

A closer view of the escapement

Another close up.

The balance bridge and wheel from underneath.

Ethan,

Apologies for the delay replying ...... tooo many domestic pressures!

Thanks a million for these pic's, they really are great help.

If it's not too much hassle for you, could you help with one or two things that aren't too clear?

Your watch appears to have been an English Lever movement that has been converted as mine has, to a Swiss lever escapement (Club tooth wheel).

I can't see the pallets in the pic's but it looks as if they're fixed under the lever?
Are the pallets jewel stones set in cages as we now commonly see, or do they appear to be thin 'slips' set in notches in the pallet arms?

Does the guard pin (the bit sticking up on the end of the lever fork) appear to be made of brass or steel or is it a jewel?

I can't see the roller on the balance too good, is there any chance you could describe it for me at all?.
Is it a double roller ie: 2x discs on one assembly,one of the discs having a notch (for the guard pin) and the other with the jewel set in it?
Or is it a single disc with both a notch and jewel pin?

Sorry about the questions!

If it's easier, you could always mail me the photo's you have, so I can enlarge and lighten them a tad.
As far as I know, clicking on my monica at the header on the forum will bring up my Email address! (if you know what I mean!)

Best regards

John

John, unlike most members of this Chapter, I have zero watchmaking skill and no tools. I will have to take this watch back to my watchmaker for further exploration and photos. Give me a week or two.

Yikes .......... truly no need to go to those lengths for me Ethan, but the offer was really appreciated all the same.
I'm sure the guy will probably remember what was in there anyway without seeing the watch again.

To be honest, if the photo's could be lightened a touch, I'm sure I'd be able to make out what the roller arrangement is, and that would do fine to be honest.

Regarding the pallets, if you take a close look at the arms where they drop and lock on the escape wheel teeth, are the jewels clearly visible? (as in a typical later Swiss or American lever watch).

If all you can see are steel arms and no jewels, they'll be slip inserts, but the slips are so fine, you may not see the slit cut into the ends of the arms or the inserts.

You've really given me some solid ground to work with here though, and I'm in with a real chance of finishing off the conversion properly.

A million thanks for this!

Best regards
John

Until I visit my watchmaker, perhaps this will suffice. I understand the watch to have a double roller. I am attaching a series of lightened pictures.

A second ligher picture.

Many thanks for lightening the photo's Ethan, there's a bit more visible to go on now.

I could be wrong, but I think your watch may have a single roller table, as the jewel pin would appear to drop down into the fork, whereas the guard pin next to the fork is vertical and probably locate in a crescent next to the jewel pin.
As I say, I could be way off here as I can't make it out too clear.

The pallet faces may have jewel slips, as the lever appears banked and the line of the pallet face looks as if it would lock the escape wheel.
Jewel stones would be fairly visible if fitted maybe.

Thanks again for taking the trouble to edit the pic's, really appreciated.

Best regards

John

Ethan,

Is there 2 jewel pins on this roller ?? The fork opening also apears quite wide..

You know John, there do look to be two jewel pins on that table! First time I've come across that!

I thought it may have been a reflection, but maybe not!
I never twigged the fork opening either, I assumed it was just different magnification on the pic's.

Would be great if you could get confirmation of it for us Ethan!

Best regards

John

John,

If it does, it could be an example of a Savage 2 pin roller..but usually they have 2 gold pins.

My watchmaker and I re-examined the Usher & Cole.
The watch has a single roller. There is just one jewel pin on the roller table. The palette has English-style jewel slip inserts.

Many thanks for going the extra mile here Ethan, it really is appreciated.

I had wondered about converting my watch back to an English Lever escapement, but I'll probably stick with the Swiss style now after seeing how yours is set up - it'll be one bit less to fiddle around with anyway.

Time to sit down and have a serious think about it now!

John

John,

I need to ask you if you did send me a regulator for my Benson? I have just this afternoon arrived in Switzerland but there is definitely no post from you, so I am wondering if you sent it and it has gone astray in the post. Sorry to bother you with this.

Irwin,

I sent you an Email during the week, can you mail me with a contact Email address or phone number in Switzerland please?

If you've no access to mail on your Kenyan address, and to contact me direct, you can use the link (my name)at the top of the main European Pocket Watch Forum page.

Hope you had a good flight!

Regards

John