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Welcome Aboard IHC185™ Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Ball Watch Company Research Forum Ball Hampden Private Labels
Internet Horology Club 185 IHC185™ Discussion Site Main Page Open to the World RESEARCH FORUMS Ball Watch Company Research Forum Ball Hampden Private LabelsRelated Content: Pocket Watch Discussions
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Recently it has come to my attention that Ball Hampden Private labels frequently have no serial numbers under the barrel bridge, I would like to know if anyone has noted this same occurrence on other private labels, particuarly those that fall between the 400-800k serial range. Normally all the plates are numbered, albeit roughly and not as smooth and well aligned as the top plate serial number. It occurs to me that as Hampden private labels occur so randomly and don't seem to be normaly distinct runs that Dueber might have taken watches from existing stock and retrofitted them with barrel bridges to meet these special orders. Your assistance or information on these would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bill Kapp | |||
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| IHC President Life Member  |
Hello Bill, This is a question I have been asking and pondering for years. Unfortunately, the same situation also exists with 18-size Ball Brotherhoods, with 16-size Ball-Waltham Brotherhoods and for that matter the Canadian Pacific Waltham movements. In each instance the replacement of a simple component held in place by one or two screws changes the value significantly. First, using simple logic it is obvious the original intention was to make it easy to change an existing movement component and then install a matching dial to fill orders on an as-needed basis. It was easy to change these components back then and unfortunately it is all too easy to change them now. Believe me these components are being changed around like you and I would change an article of our clothing and just as casually. As an example, I recall a few years ago during a visit to the home of an active watch trader I noticed two of the movements he had been taking apart were sitting on his bench and I asked about them. He explained that he was in the process of exchanging dials between a Ball Brotherhood and a Ball ORRS movement in order to then have two watches that he could resell as being Brotherhoods. Of course the obvious irony was neither would really be a true brotherhood now as one would lack the movement marking and the other would not have a Brotherhood dial. Consider that scenario as it is easily applicable to the Hampdens you mentioned as well as the other examples I provided. You asked whether... "Dueber might have taken watches from existing stock and retrofitted them with barrel bridges to meet these special orders" ...they could have but that was not necessarily the situation. Remember that Webb C. Ball liked to promote himself as a Watch Manufacturer, not just a jeweler, distributor or retailer. The myth of his "manufacturer status" was kept alive by the fact that final adjustments, casing and timing were done at his own facility. Obviously that was where a watch could most readily take on an entirely new personality, performed by the comparatively easy change of barrel cover or plug and dial. That way when they had a sale for a specifically marked watch, added profits made it worthwhile to convert their existing inventory. It was done then, it is done today. There are some very interesting stories told privately among Northern Ohio Collectors about goings on after the Ball facility closed. Stories about Ball Dials being purchased in quantity and used for target practice. And stories about selections of barrel covers as well as Brotherhood-Signed Ball-Waltham gold plugs surfacing and available for sale. In recent months there have been several eBay auctions for the gold plugs and every now and then an individual barrel cover or dial will come up for sale. A sort of "do-it-yourself" kit leading to instant watch improvement and greater profits. Think of the above accounts the next time you see a watch with non-matching or suspicious markings. I find there is often a conspiracy of silence and denial when it comes to this subject. Lindell  Final adjustments and other operations were completed here...  | |||
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Lindell, No one is more attunded to the switching game than myself. I constantly find myself in semi acrimonious debates with those who are trying to validate mismatched dials and movements. In this case with the Hampden barrel bridges, I think something else is going on. There are no serial number markings on the underside. In looking at other Hampdens of the same era, the serial markings are very rough. Uneven and obviously each numeral individualy stamped. If these plates were simply being used as switchers, it would have been a simple matter to stamp them with the appropriate numerals. No particular skill would be needed as actual original plates are so sloppily marked. I agree that it could be Ball himself doing the replacement. Looking at that early ad showing the Hampden dial on a Ball Standard and seeing that all the watches actualy have Ball dials tells us that he wanted his name to figure prominently on his products. Everybody likes to speculate on why Ball and Dueber had their falling out. Perhaps this replacement issue was part of it! I love this hobby, the history and chalanges are so interesting! Happy hunting, BILL | ||||
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Hi again, I want to thank David Abbe for adding valuable information to this discussion in a pocket watch post. Hampden Private Label discussion | ||||
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Barrel bridge Hi again, I just recieved a pic of another Superior grade Ball Hampden with no serial number under the barrel bridge. Scroll down at the above link. This is the 4 th Ball I have seen like this and none so far with a serial number. Looks like this is the way it was done, that Hampden just replaced the bridges on early private label orders and used older existing stock. Hopefully others will let us know how their watches are marked. happy hunting | ||||
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George Jones reports that lot #225 A Ball's Standard Superior Grade has no serial number under the barrel bridge. This is 5 known examples with no reports yet of any with serial numbers. It would appear that this is the norm and not an anomaly! happy hunting, | ||||
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