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"Ball & Company" marked dial? "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
Hi, wondering if you can help me ID a Ball dial. It is a 16-size Waltham-Ball ORRS, 19 Jewel, and the dial is marked simply "Ball & Company" and underneath that, "Cleveland". It has the fancier script numerals (fancier than the standard "Trademark" dials anyway...) At first I thought this dial was from a Commerical Standard, but those dials seem to have "Ball Watch Co., Cleveland" markings... Is this an early option dial for turn-of-the-century Walthams? Interestingly, the case is a Waltham-marked 20yr gold-filled SBB... Never saw a gold-filled Waltham-marked case before. Thanks!
 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
Barry-
"Ball & Company" dials show up every once and a while. They are more valuable- and much harder to find then the typical "Ball Watch Company"

From memory, I think they are from the earlier runs of Balls; and are most often found on ORRS watches. What are the markings on the movement?
 
Posts: 47 | Location: Hamlin, New York USA | Registered: March 05, 2007
posted
Thanks for the information Foster. As far as markings go, it is a standard (no pun intended! :-) ORRS movement w/ RR gold-seal. Nothing out of the oridinary. I recall it is either 1901 or 1906 vintage (I don't have the movement with me), plain-Jane 19-jewel. The dial is perfect and quite elegant with the simple logo and fine numerals. I'm glad it is "original". :-)
 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
Here is the dial in question. I've not gone through the watch yet, and these are the hands that were on it. Any chance they are original? No obvious signs of fitting, but are certainly not typical Ball hands. The seconds hand does appear to be a later replacement.

 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
here is the case hallmark; I've never seen a WALTHAM mark like this in a goldfilled case, have any of you? Just your typical screw-back-and-bezel YGF case.

 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
normal looking ORRS 16-size movement.

 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
Barry, I grew up in St. Paul, two of my three kids and their families still live there. On the subject, I am a little puzzled with your Waltham Ball in comparing it with a similar 19j I just finished cleaning up last week.

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC Life Member
Picture of David Abbe
posted
Mine has three obvious differences;
1. A "normal" Dial
2. A different Click
3. "5 Positions" engraved under "Adjusted, and Adjacent to the 1904 production S/N B233770

Another point-question (this is for the "Ball Experts Please) Barry's watch (appears to) show a 7 digit S/N B0505504. Excepting the first "0" that would be a 1901 production in the 6 digit s/n series; B505501 - B506000 (pg.35 "Amer RR Watches", G.E. Townsend)

So is the extra "0" mean anything, or is it an embellishment of that run?

 
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Thanks Dave,

These are complicated issues!

I'll do more than one post and hope to help sort it out. Smile

Let's begin with Barry's unusual but most likely genuine dial. Those are "Breguet-Style" numerals which were used on some early Ball & Company dials. I do not have a specific recollection of having seen an identical dial to Barry's in the past, it is unusual, but I believe it to be the genuine article.

My initial feeling was that it may have originated on an earlier marked "Ball & Co." movement, however the dials often do not always specifically match the movement. Consider also the fact that Barry's movement number B0505504 is from 1901 production (seventh run, B0505501-B0506000 inclusive which turns out to be a 1901 run of 17 and 19-Jewel movements, more about that later!) which is the year we find changes from "Ball & Co." to "Ball Watch Co." to be taking place on both dials and movements.

Often there was disparity and they do not always match, after all what they were doing was selling watches, only in recent times has there been the kind of obsession we have about such things!

Specifically to the Breguet numerals we see on Barry's dial, one of our IHC185 Members John Scott has done important work-ups on the Ball-Waltham production numbers and John recently sent us both the 1903 Ball Advertisement and the dial picture you see side-by-side in the merged image below.

Look carefully at those you see below and compare the numeral design with Barry's dial.


1903 Ball advertisement and dial showing Breguet numerals...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
Thanks David and Lindell! I just got back from a quick trip to S.Carolina and read your posts. I'd love to have the watch pictured in the ad, complete with case and dial! :-) Any thoughts on the Waltham case? As a Waltham collector (in addition to my Hamilton habit) I was interested in this too. Thanks again for the info.
 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
Another question for you Lindell; was there a specific "overlap period" where both the Breguet numeral dials and the more-common "flat-top 3" numeral dials were used? Is there a date where Breguet dials were likely NOT used anymore? I've got another 19 jewel Trademark logo dial with Breguet numerals. Serial number B236551, movement from ~1906 as I recall.
 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Barry,

If your watch were in my collection I might seriously consider replacing the dial to one that matches the "Ball Watch Company" movement markings although as I suggested above the dial as presented on your watch could conceivably be original. However the preferred dial would have a matching signature to the movement but... "You can't always get what you want".

A very important thing to keep in mind is the "Ball & Company" signature on movements and dials which were phased out for "Ball Watch Company" beginning in the 1901 time-period. Breguet style numerals seem to be more common on the earlier dials. My interest is in the Official RR Standard with an emphasis on the various Brotherhoods, so those are the ones I am most familiar with.

Speaking of Brotherhoods and getting back to the more unusual movement numbers, check the one you see shown below. That is a very uncommon Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen example. Yes, the number is B0056914 from the 6th run consisting of a mere 500 movements B0056501-B0057000 inclusively. (Most movement number compilations do not include the "B00" prefix on those numbers.)


Rare B of L F movement with unusual B0056914 number...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
NICE!! Is the dial plain "Ball & Co", or does it also have the Bof LF logo on it? I missed (went too high for me, $800 something??) a Ball & Co. movement on Ebay recently that had a O of RC logo insert on the movement, but had a plain "Official Standard" dial on it. I was thinking the same thing; nice to have the Ball & Co. dial on similarly marked movement.
 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Thanks Barry,

I was pleased to buy this one eBay some time ago. The seller thought it was a "B of L E" and I knew better. Look closely, many observers do not realize the "L" scrolls under the "F" on the design.


Signed Ball & Company B of L F dial fronting B0056914...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
On the 2 examples of the watches at the beginning of this thread, I notice that one of the top plates is marked with sapphire something....and the other one is not. Was that something that was left off of later watches, or included on later watches. I have seen them both, and don't know enough about Ball to purchase one, except that they are usually out of my price range!
Regards,


Glenn Howell
 
Posts: 41 | Location: Raleigh, North Carolina USA | Registered: November 17, 2007
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

Hi Glenn,

Sorry your question was overlooked for a while, but today in order to adequately respond I looked at more than a dozen Ball-Waltham examples from the 13th blocked up through the later ones. Interestingly, all those I checked with the exception of B134418 and another from that run had the "Sapphire Pallets" marking. That includes all three shown in this topic. The third one, number B0056914 has the marking, but the angle of my image causes the balance wheel to obscure it somewhat.

Sapphire Pallets were a feature of the Ball Official RR Standard and Brotherhood marked movements from their early use on 18-size Ball-Hamiltons and Ball-Elgins through production of the 16-size Ball-Walthams and Ball-Hamiltons. That marking was gone by the advent of Ball-Illinois 16-size movements in the late 1920s and does not appear on the Ball-Hamilton 998-Elinvar or 999B watches.

And Glenn, maybe we'll have a nice one for you soon in our IHC185 Auctions. Wink

Lindell


"Sapphire Pallets" appears on most RR Ball-Walthams...


 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
posted
Hi again. While searching for a "Ball & Co" movement to match the aforementioned "Ball & Co." dial, I was pleased to find the following 17J Waltham-Ball on ebay recently. I was surprised to discover when I got it home that this is ALSO a "Ball & Co." dial, but with the more typical ORRS logo, so I didn't notice it in the photos. Can't split this pair up! Oh well, will keep looking. :-)

 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
and here is the movement, B0056862 from ~1901.

 
Posts: 43 | Location: St.Paul, Minnesota USA | Registered: February 18, 2007
posted
Barry,
Not spitting those two up is a great "problem" to have! Smile
Nice looking find, and I hope you soon find a movement for the dial you have.
Regards,


Glenn Howell
 
Posts: 41 | Location: Raleigh, North Carolina USA | Registered: November 17, 2007
IHC Member 665
posted
Are there any Ball Brotherhood dials marked "Ball Watch Co"?

The 1905 Ball catalogue shows a range of Brotherhood dialed watches, all marked "Ball & Co". On page 22 is shown a B of L E dial and there is a note on that page referring the reader to pages 4 and 8 for views of the corresponding movement(s). Page 4 shows 16s Waltham movement B200406. Page 8 shows 18s Hamilton movement 458964. Both movements are marked "Ball Watch Co". It can be concluded that Ball sold "Ball Watch Co" marked movements bearing "Ball & Co" marked dials. The 1907 Ball catalogue provides precisely the same indication.

Note that (13 million) B200406 does not appear in the Waltham serial number listing (Grey Book) as pertaining to a Ball model. The number would be real (as illustrated), however, as other watches having close numbers are known.

Close examination of the original catalogue diagram on page 4 of B200406 shows no sign of a "Sapphire Pallets" marking under the balance wheel. I can confirm that it is the same in real life for B200016, a 19J ORRS movement.

John Scott
NAWCC #75465

 
Posts: 209 | Location: East Melbourne, Victoria, Australia | Registered: December 31, 2005
IHC Member 665
posted
Page 4

 
Posts: 209 | Location: East Melbourne, Victoria, Australia | Registered: December 31, 2005
IHC Member 665
posted
Page 8

 
Posts: 209 | Location: East Melbourne, Victoria, Australia | Registered: December 31, 2005
posted
John,

Photo ad cuts were expensive. Obviously Ball did not put the same dial on a 16 sz waltham and an 18sz Hamilton.

I note that in 1890 Ball used a Dueber dial ad cut for his Ball's Standard watch co offering. That dial has never been seen on a Ball's standard watch, but the identical ad cut photo is used on non Ball Hampden ads of the period.

In my opinion, AD cut photo layouts were more expensive($'s) than dials (pennies), and Ball shaved a few bucks in ad costs. Note also in that 1902 brochure that Ball advertised a few new models that have never been seen such as the 999 standard.

I note that in the 1902 Brochure that they were still using the curly 3 adcuts for Ball & CO ORRS dials which we know to have been discontinued 5+ years previous. Brochures obviously didn't exactly match current product.

I haven't paid that much attention to Ball Watch Co, but if the 1905 brochure was correct, you would expect sightings of Hamilton Ball Watch Co movements with Ball & Co Dials to be the norm from 1905-1908. I don't think that has been the case.

In my opinion you shouldn't see Ball and Co Hamilton dials on Ball Watch Co movements.
happy hunting
 
Posts: 881 | Location: Arroyo Grande, California USA | Registered: February 22, 2004
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