Hi, wondering if you can help me ID a Ball dial. It is a 16-size Waltham-Ball ORRS, 19 Jewel, and the dial is marked simply "Ball & Company" and underneath that, "Cleveland". It has the fancier script numerals (fancier than the standard "Trademark" dials anyway...) At first I thought this dial was from a Commerical Standard, but those dials seem to have "Ball Watch Co., Cleveland" markings... Is this an early option dial for turn-of-the-century Walthams? Interestingly, the case is a Waltham-marked 20yr gold-filled SBB... Never saw a gold-filled Waltham-marked case before. Thanks!

Barry-
"Ball & Company" dials show up every once and a while. They are more valuable- and much harder to find then the typical "Ball Watch Company"

From memory, I think they are from the earlier runs of Balls; and are most often found on ORRS watches. What are the markings on the movement?

Thanks for the information Foster. As far as markings go, it is a standard (no pun intended! :-) ORRS movement w/ RR gold-seal. Nothing out of the oridinary. I recall it is either 1901 or 1906 vintage (I don't have the movement with me), plain-Jane 19-jewel. The dial is perfect and quite elegant with the simple logo and fine numerals. I'm glad it is "original". :-)

Here is the dial in question. I've not gone through the watch yet, and these are the hands that were on it. Any chance they are original? No obvious signs of fitting, but are certainly not typical Ball hands. The seconds hand does appear to be a later replacement.

here is the case hallmark; I've never seen a WALTHAM mark like this in a goldfilled case, have any of you? Just your typical screw-back-and-bezel YGF case.

normal looking ORRS 16-size movement.

Barry, I grew up in St. Paul, two of my three kids and their families still live there. On the subject, I am a little puzzled with your Waltham Ball in comparing it with a similar 19j I just finished cleaning up last week.

Mine has three obvious differences;
1. A "normal" Dial
2. A different Click
3. "5 Positions" engraved under "Adjusted, and Adjacent to the 1904 production S/N B233770

Another point-question (this is for the "Ball Experts Please) Barry's watch (appears to) show a 7 digit S/N B0505504. Excepting the first "0" that would be a 1901 production in the 6 digit s/n series; B505501 - B506000 (pg.35 "Amer RR Watches", G.E. Townsend)

So is the extra "0" mean anything, or is it an embellishment of that run?

Thanks David and Lindell! I just got back from a quick trip to S.Carolina and read your posts. I'd love to have the watch pictured in the ad, complete with case and dial! :-) Any thoughts on the Waltham case? As a Waltham collector (in addition to my Hamilton habit) I was interested in this too. Thanks again for the info.

Another question for you Lindell; was there a specific "overlap period" where both the Breguet numeral dials and the more-common "flat-top 3" numeral dials were used? Is there a date where Breguet dials were likely NOT used anymore? I've got another 19 jewel Trademark logo dial with Breguet numerals. Serial number B236551, movement from ~1906 as I recall.

NICE!! Is the dial plain "Ball & Co", or does it also have the Bof LF logo on it? I missed (went too high for me, $800 something??) a Ball & Co. movement on Ebay recently that had a O of RC logo insert on the movement, but had a plain "Official Standard" dial on it. I was thinking the same thing; nice to have the Ball & Co. dial on similarly marked movement.

On the 2 examples of the watches at the beginning of this thread, I notice that one of the top plates is marked with sapphire something....and the other one is not. Was that something that was left off of later watches, or included on later watches. I have seen them both, and don't know enough about Ball to purchase one, except that they are usually out of my price range!
Regards,

Hi again. While searching for a "Ball & Co" movement to match the aforementioned "Ball & Co." dial, I was pleased to find the following 17J Waltham-Ball on ebay recently. I was surprised to discover when I got it home that this is ALSO a "Ball & Co." dial, but with the more typical ORRS logo, so I didn't notice it in the photos. Can't split this pair up! Oh well, will keep looking. :-)

and here is the movement, B0056862 from ~1901.

Barry,
Not spitting those two up is a great "problem" to have!
Nice looking find, and I hope you soon find a movement for the dial you have.
Regards,

Are there any Ball Brotherhood dials marked "Ball Watch Co"?

The 1905 Ball catalogue shows a range of Brotherhood dialed watches, all marked "Ball & Co". On page 22 is shown a B of L E dial and there is a note on that page referring the reader to pages 4 and 8 for views of the corresponding movement(s). Page 4 shows 16s Waltham movement B200406. Page 8 shows 18s Hamilton movement 458964. Both movements are marked "Ball Watch Co". It can be concluded that Ball sold "Ball Watch Co" marked movements bearing "Ball & Co" marked dials. The 1907 Ball catalogue provides precisely the same indication.

Note that (13 million) B200406 does not appear in the Waltham serial number listing (Grey Book) as pertaining to a Ball model. The number would be real (as illustrated), however, as other watches having close numbers are known.

Close examination of the original catalogue diagram on page 4 of B200406 shows no sign of a "Sapphire Pallets" marking under the balance wheel. I can confirm that it is the same in real life for B200016, a 19J ORRS movement.

John Scott
NAWCC #75465

Page 4

Page 8

John,

Photo ad cuts were expensive. Obviously Ball did not put the same dial on a 16 sz waltham and an 18sz Hamilton.

I note that in 1890 Ball used a Dueber dial ad cut for his Ball's Standard watch co offering. That dial has never been seen on a Ball's standard watch, but the identical ad cut photo is used on non Ball Hampden ads of the period.

In my opinion, AD cut photo layouts were more expensive($'s) than dials (pennies), and Ball shaved a few bucks in ad costs. Note also in that 1902 brochure that Ball advertised a few new models that have never been seen such as the 999 standard.

I note that in the 1902 Brochure that they were still using the curly 3 adcuts for Ball & CO ORRS dials which we know to have been discontinued 5+ years previous. Brochures obviously didn't exactly match current product.

I haven't paid that much attention to Ball Watch Co, but if the 1905 brochure was correct, you would expect sightings of Hamilton Ball Watch Co movements with Ball & Co Dials to be the norm from 1905-1908. I don't think that has been the case.

In my opinion you shouldn't see Ball and Co Hamilton dials on Ball Watch Co movements.
happy hunting