Hello, I have long wondered which Illinois 16s Bunn Special Movements were orginally factory fitted in the various marked Bunn Special Cases. For example, from the watches I have seen, the first model cases were fitted to some of the 21 & 23J Bunn Specials in the mid 1920s. I have also seen these cases with 60hr Bunn Specials both 21 & 23J varieties and even occasionally on one of the later Hamilton Bunn Specials. Most if not all of the Model 181 Bunn Special cases I have seen have 161 or 161A movements. All of the Model 107 cases I have seen had 161 or 161A movements. All of the Model 28 Bunn Special cases I have seen with original movements have had 23J Bunn Special, 23J 60HR, 163, or 163A movements. Ditto for the Model 206 and 173 cases. I have seen the Model 29 case with either a 21J 60HR movement or 161 movement. The only example of the Model 108 case I have seen held a 161A movement. Thus far in my short career collecting 16s RR watches I have not yet seen a Model 128 or 193 case and in fact am somewhat confused by the Model 193 case as the image of it depicted in the Shugart watch guide seems identical to the image of one of the First Model cases. Why are there 2 "First Model" Bunn Special cases--which seem identical except for different bows (one with straight horizontal top and other with notch in top piece of bow) and were these produced simultaneously or in different time frames. I would be interested to learn if anyone has information as to which 16s Bunn Special movements were issued by Illinois in each of the various types of marked Bunn Special cases--does anyone know? IF not perhaps this would be a good topic to set up as separate directory to gather and research this information. Personally I have bought some empty Bunn Special cases for my collection with the intent of eventually filling them with approprite Bunn Special movements but ideally I would like to put in movements that were originally proper for the model case. Collecting good examples of each type of factory issued Bunn Special cases with appropriate movements & dials in them is one of my long term collecting goals.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Gregory Hall

this will be short to begin with.....

there were 3 first model designs....

the 193 is a sangamo case

the first to use the 'first model' cases were 21j model 9 movements. this is documented in the factory introduction ads ...

you can see some additional info on this site with the "find" feature....

we have talked about this a lot....


there will be more info posted... keep tuned in...


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Terry thanks for the info. I have a 16s Model 10 23 J Sangamo Special in a screwback WGF case marked on inside case back with SANGAMO SPECIAL script and it does look exactly like the model 193 case listed in Shugart's watch guide (with notched bow). Does this mean that there are no model 193 cases marked as Bunn Special Model 193 on inside case back? Is the "first model" Bunn Special case with notched bow top (which so far I have seen as being only marked Bunn Special on inside case back) simply the same as the Model 193 case with 193 case being only used and marked for Sangamo Special movements?

Gregory Hall

page 228 of the bible shows the 23 Sangamo with a DIAL (No.193)

and for your reading pleasure

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=search&...rum_scope=1086047761

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four colors?

were these ever separated past white, green, and yellow in the ads?

I know you are speaking of the Rose color......

yes, the rose....

my eyes make it difficult for me to 'pick em out'... but the important point is...

no literature from Illinois or Hamilton distinguishes these from the yellow 10k GF cases... (if you find it please post!)

but they do exist... to those with better color vision than I ( which is a vast majority of the population )


now.... onward...

another important point to remember on these cases is there is a chronological order to their introduction.......

this is spelled out in the Meggers/Ehrhardt reference.....

and if you look around, you will see info that the 23j movements were still being sold as movement only until about 1928 ish....

"PROVING" Illinois movement/case combinations is not very cut and dried.... and the factory boxes are ambigious in themselves...... ( and 70+ years of switching don't help )

Fred, my understanding would be that after the April and May 1925 introductory Ads were published, "most" model 9's would be factory cased....

and i am certain many have been sacrificed for a 60 hr movement.......

here is another link 4 u ...

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1...041064651#1041064651

quote:

Posted March 13, 2006 16:55
Terry thanks for the info. I have a 16s Model 10 23 J Sangamo Special in a screwback WGF case marked on inside case back with SANGAMO SPECIAL script and it does look exactly like the model 193 case listed in Shugart's watch guide (with notched bow). Does this mean that there are no model 193 cases marked as Bunn Special Model 193 on inside case back? Is the "first model" Bunn Special case with notched bow top (which so far I have seen as being only marked Bunn Special on inside case back) simply the same as the Model 193 case with 193 case being only used and marked for Sangamo Special movements?

Lindell I believe answered this one ... but to add a bit....

if you look at your model 10 Sangamo Special movement in this case, do you see a 'gap' around the movement? Do the plates of the movement sit down below the surface where the case screws contact it?

The two versions of the "First Model" from Nov. 1925.

Robert

A HA!

Notice where it says "regular" gold ??

So it don't even say 'yellow' ...


hmmmmmmm

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Here we have 7 men standing on a 163 housed in the Keystone Model 206 case which was introduced abt. 1930.

In the foreground we have the Wadsworth Model 29, introduced abt. 1929.

Robert

Terry, with regards to my Model 10 Sangamo Special--I don't have it here with me at the moment but if my memory serves me correctly it does fit its Sangamo Special screwback case very well and the movement is from the latter 17s Model 10 23J Sangamo Specials--hence I expect it must be a Model 193 case--I will have to look at it again more closely when I get home and get a chance.

Thanks to everyone else who has responded to my post. Lindell especially a grateful thanks for phoning me and recruiting me to this great chapter of NAWCC--I initially signed up for just a one year membership but when I renew I think it will be for good (lifetime).

I still wonder however, if there is some plan or reaon to which 16s Bunn Specials were mated to certain model cases at the factory. Granted so many movements have been separated from their original cases but still I would hope that out there somewhere there are enough original intact watches to put together some kind of database to see if we can uncover which movements were sold by the factory in what model cases. Would it not be a worthwile project to start such a database on original intact 16s Bunn Specials from 1925-end of production to try and answer this question (as the historal record from advertising is obviously a bit murky to say the least).

Thanks again to all who have educated me further on these wonderful timepieces.

Gregory Hall
Little Rock, AR

I have a database I have worked on for the Bunn Special Wadsworth cases for around a decade now, and they are scheduled to be published here on 185 as soon as I can get Lindell motivated, ha!

Trouble is Gregory, there are Wadsworth , Keystone, and Fahy's Bunn Special cases. The Wadsworth cases can be specifically dated due to the fact they are chronological and make sense and I have been building this database for over a decade. The Keystone cases can not be specifically dated only generalized to the late 20's through the 1930's. It is impossible to figure out which case came on "exactly" which watch as everyone and I do mean everyone has been switching cases for over 70 years now. Yes even jewelers when they were new!

Good luck on figuring them out, I have been studying them for 30 years and am still learning. We can almost put Keystone cases on any 161 or 163 due to the fact that they can not be exactly dated as I said earlier and that is where the better Keystone Bunn cases are going today. You can not take that liberty with Wadsworth Bunn cases as we can date those to within +/- one year! So switchers will be scrambling for correct cases once my info comes out. When it is published I will unleash information for dating the Fayhs cases. But one thing at a time, ha! Happy Hunting!

A HA again !!

The Acker ad shows yellow or yeller down here

and shows a 14k 'natural' in the sangamo special case description...

quote:

I still wonder however, if there is some plan or reaon to which 16s Bunn Specials were mated to certain model cases at the factory. Granted so many movements have been separated from their original cases but still I would hope that out there somewhere there are enough original intact watches to put together some kind of database to see if we can uncover which movements were sold by the factory in what model cases. Would it not be a worthwile project to start such a database on original intact 16s Bunn Specials from 1925-end of production to try and answer this question (as the historal record from advertising is obviously a bit murky to say the least).

Like Mike says, we have been trying.....

But there is so much difficultly in determining IF a watch you pick up at a table is ORIGINAL...
The switching and upgrading has been going on for years....
Like I demonstrated above, even the boxes will not be conclusive evidence like the Hamilton Boxes that have the case serial numbers...

There are some obvious ways to tell... Say a type I 21j 60 hour in a model 29 case or a 173 case... you can almost bet the bank it is a swap.

Even the one shown below... it is just indicated as a 118 case....

IMHO, the advertising is probably a better representation of what was going on that 'someone' that is trying to sell the watch "saying" original .



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Terry,
Here's a May, 1934 advertisement for the Model 118.

Robert

Great Ad, Robert!! Where do you find all these great pieces of emphamera? I think for me the most interesting part of the ad is at the bottom, where it says "Model #118. A brand new Bunn Special Elinvar."....well, we all know the Elinvar was not new in 1934 , so they must be talking about the case, which really is a great piece of information. I think as Terry says, it is the ads that help us most with dating things. This was a great learning tool for me as I think I had always wondered exactly where this 118 case came into the fold with it's UNmarked characteristic, how dare they not mark a Bunn Special case?! Thanks for sharing again , Robert!...and keep 'em coming....wow!, great stuff! Happy " Great Ad " Hunting!

Thanks Mike,
These magazines are on-line at the link below. Is appears the model 118 was introduced in 1934.

Have you seen any Bunn Special/Sangamo Special ads after 1934?

Robert

Frisco Magazines

No I haven't Robert but I certainly would like to! Hey, I like seeing any of them from any year, ha! Hope you show us some of the others you might run across. I find there is often a wealth of information in the "fine print" as they say. Happy Hunting!

quote:

Here's a May, 1934 advertisement for the Model 118.

I didn't realize those Bunn Specials had a 6o-hour hairspring! I wonder how long a clock pendulum would need to be to acheive that rate.

Seriously, thanks to all for sharing. I may not comment on all of these posts but I am reading it all and trying to absorb as much as I can.

Ron

Thanks Ron... slipped right by a bunch of us...


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Ron,
Thanks for bringing the 60 hour hairspring to our attention.

I have made a correction to the image.

Robert

Robert

I actually like the image in its original form.

This obvious mistake by the copy writer demonstrates how literaly (or not) we should take what we read.

Ron

Ron,
At your request.

Robert

imho... right thing to do....

I agree, right thing to do.... the ad was obviously not written by Lou (Accuracy) Acker, of Illinois fame, ha! ....but it is the very thing I have pointed out for years, there are mistakes in ads that one has to have understanding of to not take them tooooooo literal. Of course there is much info in the ads that IS accurate as well and we are all looking for that.

Note , for instance, the learning that comes with looking at that PRISTINE 206 case with all the detail on the bow and razorblade sharpness of the crown. Print that ad out and next time someone shows you a Model 206 Bunn Sp. case and tells you it's "Minty".....pull out that ad and show them what mint is suppossed to look like and anything less is no where close. Oh, to find a 2-Tone 206 case in that condition! Now THAT's learning ! Happy "Mint Case" Hunting!

Hamilton formally introduced both the Bunn Special-161A,163A-Elinvar and the 992 Elinvar at the same time in Sept. 1931. (See link below).

A pre-introduction was made in August 1931. (See link below).

The 992 Elinvar was introduced in the Wadsworth model #8 case and the Bunn Special in the Wadsworth #108 case.

A link to the "Elinvar" Patent, Dated 1923, is also shown below.


Robert

Elinvar (Pre-Introduction) Aug. 1931

Bunn Special/992 Elinvar (Introduction) Sept. 1931

Elinvar Patent, Page 1

Elinvar Patent, Page 2