I happened to come across an illinois 5th pinion 17j pocket watch today and was wondering what grade it was. I know some of these are scarce and always wanted to have one, so I thought it was be a good one to grab. One of these days i'll just have to buy one of the Illinois books.. Also, if Mr. Brown can do some checking into the jeweler this was made for, it would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Jared

Here is the movement shot.

311037 is a grade 64-S made from May-June 1889.

Nice watch Jared.

It looks like it was probably the store of John Kirkland Armstrong, he died in 1880 & his wife Hannah took over the store, so she was probably running it when your watch was sold.

I found this obituary for her;

March 18, 1920 Mrs. Hannah Armstrong, 541 South West died March 18, 1920, Thursday afternoon at her home of infirmities of old age. Hannah Firth born July 14, 1831, Lockport, New York where she spent her early days. Here she was married on September 21, 1854, to John Kirkland Armstrong. They came to Galesburg, Ill the spring of 1855. Mr. Armstrong died January 07, 1880. He will be remembered by the older citizens as having operated a jewelry and watchmakers shop in the old Dr. White store corner of Main & Seminary. Ten years after husband's death she continued the jewelry business at 224 East Main, G. H. Chapman was the manager. In 1891, the present partnership of Chapman & Armstrong was formed. She was of a retiring disposition and lived quiet and unpretentious life. Survived by two daughters, Mrs. Lizzie Seymour, Mrs. Emma Vivian of Galesburg, three grandchildren, one great-grandchild. Funeral service was held Saturday afternoon from the residence, Dr. C. E. McKinley in charge. Burial in Hope Cemetery, Galesburg, IL.

Mike-

The complete guide shows serial number 300,000 or so being from around 1880 and your notes is showing 1889. Is the 1889 correct or the 1880 correct?

Also, I never knew they made the model 64 or 65 in a fifth pinion model. Interesting things you learn over time.

Thanks,

Jared

That is what the entry for that run of 100 shows, although other nearby runs range from 1882-1890 or so. I assume there was some data found that allowed him to come up with those specific dates. This is from the Illinois encyclopedia vol.2 by Meggers.

Meggers Illinois book says 100 of this model 3 grade 64 were made in one run in 1889 and another 15 in a run in 1895.

Mike, Tom, and Robert-

Thanks for the information on this puppy. Now to get it in and running properly.

Jared

Jared, Another couple of observations;

1. The Data Base reports the 100 piece, s/n 311,001-311,100 May-June 1889 Production run yours was made in as "RR King" Grade 64 watches. Your Private Label must therefore be very rare.

2. The last 15 pieces reported in S/N 1279971-128000 range are finish dated 1895 as "Paillard's Watch Co." which by must be an intersting part of the overall history of these rare movements.

3. The fact that this is a 17 Jewel watch as it has 5 pairs of jewelled pinions including the evident Jewelled 5Th Pinion meaning the main wheel is not Jewelled makes this a most interesting and very very collectible watch at the very least.

David-

Thanks for the further information on it. I bought it due to the jeweled 5th pinion and knowing they are fairly scarce with the jeweled 5th pinion. I still didn't realize they made a 64 grade in the 5th pinion... still seems wierd to me as most of them i'm used to are the 17j two-tone models.

Thanks,

Jared

From someone that does not collect many older Illinois grades, what was the logic for the 5th pinion? It appears that the hunter grade 65 only has 4 pinions, was this a transition from hunter to open face?

Claude-

That is correct. There is an extra pinion added to the hunting case model in the correct place for it to be changed over to an open face watch. The fourth wheel then does not have a seconds bit, but just acts as a gear. It was an easy way fro them to make both an open face and hunting case watch from the same initial setup of a watch

Jared

Ok so the 4th pinion on this grade simply became a drive through gear (more or less) and the 5th pinion had the seconds bit? How did this relocate the lever setting, seems like it might move it some.

I picked up a 65-S that was not identified properly off ebay so I will post some pictures of it. The serial number on it is in the 1,2M range, it is also a 17j private label but it is as you mentioned earlier a tu-tone DMK effect.

Claude-

I took a picture of another 5th pinion I have for sale on the site and added information to it. Hopefullt this points out how it works. These also take a special dial, as the foot locations are different so that the winding location is at the 12, not the 3.

Jared,
For those of us that need pictures with our explanations ..A big thank you for the illustration, explains it perfectly.

Ray

Claude, In short, the hunter set lever did not have to be moved, rather the fifth Pinion moved the Seconds bit arounbf 90 degrees to the "old" 9 O'clock position and that made the original unchanged set Lever relative to the new dial hour numbers go from about 5 O'clock on the hunter dial to 2 O'clock on the new OF dial that has "12" at the old 3 O'Clock.

Once Jared mentioned the special dial that help understand the last bit of the puzzle. And I agree with Ray for someone that has not seen one of these movements, the arrows help.

Here are some cleaned up versions. It took a staff and a couple blued screws to match. Now to find a nice coin case to throw it in! Anybody?

Here is the movement. this picture does not do this movement justice... I just checked her out this morning and she's keeping time within a minute overnight. I'm betting it would keep RR time if I wanted to spend a lot of time working with it!

I finally found a nice case for this beauty. Here is the finished product.

Movement

Case back