I have been entertaining the idea of making custom dials for US made pocket watches using the traditional enamel on copper technique. Through researching all available materials, both for firing and printing, I think it is very possible to supply beautiful custom dials, in either single or double sunk form, to fit any 16s - 18s movement.

Let's begin by saying that I am in no way interested in reproducing existing branded dials. No matter how rare or desirable, that ship has sailed. Period.

My idea is to make dials with a custom name e.g. "Wm White Special" or "Richard Romero Special" etc. with chapter dimensions and numeric characters that compliment the original graphic intent and balance of a given timepiece. I have yet to test fire any enamel powders but they are readily available and are said to be of high purity. The printing would be done using enamel pigments mixed with an oil based vehicle applied via the pad printing process and fired at a slightly lower temperature than the white base layers. The grinding and beveling of the separate pieces can be accomplished through the use of machines I already use for crystals as well as some additional custom diamond plated conical tooling. I will also need to construct a small gas fired temperature controlled furnace.

This not so simple art of enamel dial making is still being practiced today by a few European companies and I believe I can accomplish the same results here. ...with a lot of practice of course!

What do you think about personalized multi-part enamel dials? Any feedback would be valuable. I'll do some simple tests soon and post the results here.

William

I be for few in 37 mm size if the price is right as my watch production is taking off.

Peter,

I have no idea of pricing but it probably won't be inexpensive. I think your watches look great by the way!

William

William, bravo to you. Sounds great

A capital idea William! Count me in as a future customer

Kudos to you William.

By "multi part enamel dials" do you mean typical traditional double sunk soldered dials?

Lorne,

Yes, traditional in every way except for the possible substitution of the lead/tin solder with a modern adhesive.

William

Wow impressive and good luck to you.

William can you use the copper out of the old broken dials or would everything have to be new..

Gary,

New copper would be used and cut using a local waterjet service.

William

Count me in William,

Can we submit graphics/art work?

Will your machine accept a particular digital format for the printing?

If your machine requires proprietary software, would we be able to submit art work in jpeg or other format for conversion?

Paul,

We're probably getting ahead of ourselves just a little but I can say that the term "custom" would at least imply many options available to the customer. I haven't even given too much thought to anything besides technical hurdles.

William

William, Firstly, while some may differ with this thought, I suggest that there is a very real need to make replacements for the UGLY CRACKED dials that have limited the future of many properly restored Hamilton 992B watches. The "melamine" color and dial design are certainly easy to reproduce, the original dial plates with feet attached should be easy to clean and re-finish. This would restore many more 992B's whose value is in the movement anyway. Aside from this suggestion, I respect and support whatever reason you have to make dials, you are always excellent in your work and I think you have a great idea.

During a brief moment (of confusion, no doubt), I thought it would be fun to make "REEL AMERICUN-MADE BIKERWATCHES" (using 7J 16s Elgin and Waltham OF movements) I arranged with a screener in L.A. to refinish "old" dials to the up-side down Elgin pattern that was used for some military vehicles and then found it's way into pocket watches which were easier to read when pulled out of the fob pocket. This was very successful as far as getting the dials made and assembling some watches that way as re-finished "Biker Watches". After accumulating about 50 movements and many more dials for that purpose, I learned, (sadly) . . . that Harley riding "poseur-bikers" (of today) have little interest in the "real thing" watches.

I did learn though that dials with the original feet left on were much easier to finish and use.

This reduces the process to a strip, clean, etch, paint, print and bake. I know that you are very exacting and suggest that fine screen printing may do well in this case.

Note, the two free-standing dials are originals and the one in the assembled watch is a refinished one.

Fantastic idea William and I look forward to updates as you progress.

I think "one-of-a-kind" custom dials would be much too expensive for the average person to justify the expense.

I read your opening statement; "Let's begin by saying that I am in no way interested in reproducing existing branded dials. No matter how rare or desirable, that ship has sailed. Period".

Like the innovative pioneers before you, I believe the money would have to be in replicating existing hard to find dials. S.LaRose did a booming business in replicating several existing hard to find dials and today those Swiss made dials are acceptable on the Hamilton RWS dials much more readily than one that is busted up or "spider-webbed". When you look at those dials you see that they were mere pressed blanks, then enamel painted. Before they went out of business those RWS dials were selling briskly from their catalogs from $40-50 per dial and that was some 20 odd years ago.

Today's market with a "White's Pressed RWS" Dial would easily go worldwide for $59-69 each as the original melamine perfect dials will generally bring $120-130 each. And the really rare dials such as Illinois marked 23J Dials, in true double sunk fashion would easily bring $119-129 each as the originals today bring $1200 and 10 yeas ago that same rare variant dial was bringing $2000-3000 !!. And there are so many other hard to find dials today that everyone is looking for, that it would make perfect business logic to replicate for today's collectors.

There would be many ways to put an unobtrusive "White Trademark" on these dials. We have seen the Ehrhardt way to put a blue 45 minute marker on his dials and the S.LaRose way that we recognize with the slight difference in the numerals. So there would be many ways to do this on true copper backed enamel fired true second sunk and double sunk dials that we need so desperately.

I can name 10-12 dials that would be big sellers in true seconds and double sunk replicated enameled dials.

I am just throwing this in your "suggestions box or think tank", as I would like to see someone do a better job of replicating dials and I feel you are capable of quality work.

The very best of luck and prosperity to you !!

regards,
bb

what about dial feet location? great idea I would be interested...

Dave,

I really like those dials you re-purposed and if the new breed of bikers don't care about pocket watches anymore, then at least they still appreciate a fully dressed Harley Davidson motorcycle! Screen printing has, like many other printing processes, gotten much better over the years. At the wine label plant we have several presses outfitted with automatic screen printing stations mounted inline. The label designers use this capability whenever a line of type or a piece of graphic is intended to stand higher (about .5mm) than the rest of the 2-D label, thus creating a 3-D effect that is both visual and tactile. The ink used is energy cured (high intensity UV). It's very glossy and is transferred through very fine mesh screens at very good resolution. But even with the fanciest screen printing toys we're not able to resolve the microscopic serifs of a 1 or 2 point font character. With the pad printing process, these tiny details can be realized. I have been greatly inspired by the small Swiss firm Donzé Cadrans in the past few years and since they use the pad method for their enamel dials, I think that's the method I'll employ.

All that being said, and looking at their fine work which has been refined over a few generations, I think it's possible that I'm in way over my head!

Buster,

There are a few concerns that I have with creating reproductions of historical brands. The first is that I am generally reluctant to interfere with the market of high grade RR watches through creating, for example, Illinois dials that sport the rare "23J" as they will undoubtedly find their way to lesser movements and ....who knows what else that unscrupulous people will do with them. I don't know too much about all the rare dials as I've never had a large watch collection and thus, have little knowledge of rarity. Through general ignorance, this aspect of marketing correct reproduction dials scares me and I am thus inclined to avoid causing pollution. If I were to make a good and accurate reproduction dial with a secret blue mark or something, someone could grind it off and paint it black again. But again, that's why we have a club here and I am open to advisement. But I'll probably stick to my original vision unless I can be convinced that there is a clean and clear way to produce the popular branded dials we all want. As an addendum to this first article of concern, every dial I make will have an indelible signature beneath the counter enamel (back of the dial) that will be the ultimate proof of origin.

My second concern is with the current ownership of popular brands. The Hamilton brand is owned by the mighty Swatch group. The Ball brand is owned by US interests. The Illinois brand, while apparently not active today, is probably owned by the Bunn family. Is it unrealistic to assume that a small stream of correct reproductions coming to market might cause these entities to take notice? I would very much care to approach this in a professional way. Again, any input would be received as valuable energy towards this project.

George,

The dial feet would be placed exactly where they belong for any given watch. That's the easy part!
.

William

What an idea William.

I have to tell you though. I agree with buster on this also. I have over 100 992B's that you just cannot find good dials for as they require/have the melamine dial on them that is all cracked. To be able to find a quality dial like the S. LaRose dial would really be something. These dials ARE going to have to be replaced and today there is really nothing out there that would even come close to what you would be able to produce.

That's why I buy your crystals all the time, because of the true quality of your work!

Just my opinion William.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Regards,
Larry

Agreed, if you only made 992B replacements, you'd be buried with work!

Regard! Mark

My thoughts are it would be great to have a watch with a custom dial but from a collector perspective that goes against what I’m trying to achieve.

The goal of me collecting watches is to try and preserve the correctness of whatever example is at hand. In order to achieve that it’s best to acquire watches that are correct to begin with and that requires research. Finding a correct example isn’t easy as we know switching parts isn’t difficult and has led to many incorrect watches. Sometimes parts can be switched or purchased in order to restore a timepiece to have the correct movement, dial, hands, and case combination and putting them back together gives me satisfaction and adds to the reasons I enjoy collecting.

It’s my opinion that Hamilton and Illinois made some of the best railroad grade pocket watches. Unfortunately Hamilton made the mistake of veering away from porcelain-enamel dials and switched to melamine. Any Hamilton RR watch collector knows the melamine dial is the Achilles heel of 992B and 950B watches. No matter what us collectors do there’s always going to be many more movements, cases, and hands that are in better condition than available genuine melamine dials.

So what’s going to happen to all those 992B watches that no longer have a presentable melamine dial? As Larry stated he cannot find a dial good enough for many them. There is definitely a need for a good reproduction dial that could restore these watches to be presentable again. It’s my opinion it would be great if dials could be made, or restored, to look exactly like the melamine versions but would last like porcelain-enamel dials.

It’s just a matter of time before the need for these dials is addressed and someone develops a suitable replacement. I don’t know about legal issues surrounding selling such a dial but it seems if the dial was sold as a LaRose, Black, or White it wouldn’t in violation of company trademarks. Now, if the dial was sold as a Hamilton that could lead to trouble.

The person that puts on the market quality reproduction dials to fix the melamine Hamilton dial issue will do more to help the preservation of those watches than to hinder it. Let’s hope when it eventually happens it’s someone like William who cares about the authenticity of watches and will mark his works in order for others to identify the origin of the dial rather than someone who will try to pass it off as an original in pursuit of the Yankee Dollar, Euro, Yen, Pound, Franc, Peso, or whatever.

William, it’s good to see you’re moving forward towards making some dials. I’m sure whatever you end up making will be of the highest quality and workmanship like all the other things you make. Perhaps you can set up the printing operation for someone else to produce and market a 992B dial?

RR

I understand that one would want his watch to have a nicer appearance, but isn't the rarity of an item a large part of what makes it a desirable collectible?

I share William's concern that recreating dials could lead to unethical usage.

happy hunting,

If you're just 'collecting', of course it's always possible as ANYTHING can be used in an unethical manner.... but if you're 'using' a watch as a carry time piece like I do, then these dials would be a God-Send for watches obtained with completely destroyed and unreadable dials.

Collectors aren't the only folks who purchase pocket watches.

Regard! Mark

Mark,

If you just want a carry timepiece, wouldn't almost any 16 sz Hamilton dial do?

happy hunting

I'll take all of these comments into consideration but in the meantime, I've got plenty of technical stuff to work out.

Thanks!

William

Bill, when you wear progressive bifocals like I do, you need all the help you can get, so the answer is....no.

Regards! Mark

I have always regretted someone's choice of "melamine" material at Hamilton. That cruddy cheap plastic made fair dishes ("Melmac") of you did not put them in the dishwasher, but was quickly and permanently outclassed by "Formica".

For branded dials, a quiet inquiry about out of production replacement parts may reward you with approval to use the name and refer to a license# on the back of the dial (rubber-stamped).

Mark, I would not suffer my father's forced use of Tri-focals, and have been fairly lucky until I got notice that I had to take a vision test this summer to renew my D/L, a trip to my Eye Dr. advised I "have 100% vision, 40% in one eye, 60% in the other both non-correctible(i.e. double cataracts). After a couple procedures less demanding that a wart removal I am back to 20-20!

I think that in general, if the Medico's just stuck with body and fender work and we would all be much better off.

I've had 20/200 vision all my life, so I've always had bad vision. That's why I love the dials made for use in dark locomotive cabs. They were made to be seen.

Regards! Mark

I like Buster's idea as well. There is a huge market for 992B dials.

I've had a customer after me for a year now wanting to buy my NOS melamine 950B 23 Jewel Railway Special dial, I finally relented and sold it to him just this week. And it was terribly expensive (I pd $350 for it in 1995!)

Back some 10-15 years ago when LaRose 992B dials were plentiful I used to sell the heck out of them
I'm sure I sold well over 100 992Bs with that familiar "Railway Special Montgomery" and never had ONE complaint. That's because they all looked so good. I see nothing wrong with doing that, along with some others.

As Larry says, given the choice between owning a nice 992B with a cracked up porcelain/crazed up melamine original dial or owning one with a "new" replacement dial that looks nice which would you rather own? IMO it's just a matter of time anyway on the Melamine ones...there's already very few left, someone will step in with LaRose type quality replacement dials. The market is there.

I'd be in for some "Time Machine" Special dials myself!

Tom and everyone else,

This will be an energetic venture to say the least. Would anyone realistically suggest that I emblazon active trademarks that I do not own, onto enameled multi-part dials I am preparing to make and sell? It seems irresponsible to move forward without proper licencing. I really need additional advice on how to approach these brand owners regarding the use of their respective trademarks. Without clear counsel regarding the process of obtaining permissions of usage, the notion of making reproduction branded dials remains a no-go issue and presently, I'm inclined to adhere to my original idea of making custom dials with custom signatures. What else can I do? The Swatch Group not only owns the Hamilton name, but also Omega, Blancpain, Longines and Breguet. For any unknowns, such as me, interested in making a name for themselves in the international horological community, trademark abuse makes a weak cornerstone and can never provide a positive legacy.

William

you are right William with out the permission you are asking for trouble, Im in process of obtaining some trade mark licence and it is up hill task
with more and more questions and legal papers,yours might be bit easier your best bet will be
to contact the owners of the brands and see what they are saying to you about making reproduction dials.

William,

I'd strongly suggest that you retain an intellectual property attorney up front before making any decisions or investing significant money in making dials that show a potentially-infringing trademark. For a few hours of his/her time, you can get a good idea about how this kind of permission and/or licensing transaction is typically handled. You might even have the attorney prepare an initial letter for you seeking permission for use of the mark, depending on what the attorney recommends and the amount you're willing to spend on the lawyer.

I am not a trademark attorney--my practice is primarily commercial liability insurance coverage. But I am often called upon to advise insurers as to coverage for trademark or trade name infringement claims against their policyholders. I can tell you that most standard insurance policies absolutely exclude claims for trademark infringement, leaving the policyholder to defend itself against such claims.

In the absence of permission for use, the company would typically issue what's referred to as a "cease and desist" letter, demanding that you immediately refrain from manufacturing and selling the infringing product. And if you didn't comply, they may well file suit. Or, they may simply dispatch with the letter altogether and simply sue you for injunctive relief and/or damages straight away. An experienced trademark attorney can help keep you out of these weeds.

Regards,

Mike

Well, obviously LaRose either had permission to make the 992B dials from someone or it wasn't needed. A little digging will find a person from that defunct company who may be able to tell you.
Maybe caskers would know something they bought out a ton of stuff didnt they? That's where I'd start

Michael,

Thank you. That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Tom,

It was probably a lot easier in the 80's when the US brands were mostly dormant. Since these replacements are something that seemingly everyone wants, I'll look into it.

William