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Hamilton extra case screw marks..... "Click" to Login or Register 
posted
Hamilton extra case screw marks.....

.....doesn't mean not original to the movement. According to this period advertising piece, it wants you to ask your jeweler about having your present watch case fitted with a Hamilton watch. So, an extra set of case screw marks can be original. Looks like things may not be what they appear to be. Now, how does one truly know if something was re-cased....

 
Posts: 273 | Location: New York in the USA | Registered: May 28, 2008
IHC Member 1291
Picture of Buster Beck
posted
Two sets of case screw marks on a case

Mean one thing

That case has held more than one movement

So.......

Is a completed watch presented at a later date,
with more than one set of case crew marks an
original combination that left the factory or
agent [jeweler] ??

Simply said, no. It is a "re-cased" watch. Your question asks;

"how does one truly know if something was re-cased...."

The answer is;

It will have more than one set of case crew marks, and it is not an original combination that would have left the factory or agent [jeweler]when it "first" was sold or entered service.

regards,
bb
 
Posts: 6376 | Location: Texas in the USA | Registered: July 27, 2009
IHC Life Member

Picture of Jerry King
posted
I understand what you are saying, Buster, but that doesn't necessarily rebut James's statement....

Let's say you have your pocket watch, dosen't matter what brand, and you are out looking in your jeweler's window and see the sign that James has posted....

So you go inside and the jeweler shows you some Hamilton movements and you decide to buy one and instead of buying a new, cased, watch you buy the movement and hand the jeweler your watch and he takes your movement as trade in and puts the new Hammie into your case....

Now you have two sets of case marks in your case but on each of them, they were original marks left by each movement that was installed by a jeweler, so why wouldn't your new watch be a new installation and "As original as it came from the jeweler"....

In my (feeble) mind it would be....so now how do we really know, when we see a case with multiple case marks, that what ever is in it is really 'recased'.... Eek

Thanks, James, for muddying up the water.... WinkAin't we got fun.... Big Grin

Regards,

Jerry
 
Posts: 2828 | Location: California in the USA | Registered: June 23, 2008
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted

As collectors we really become fixated on case-screw marks as the best, often the only clue as to whether a case may have held a previous movement. It is certainly possible that someone who bought a lesser Hamilton may some years later see a reason to upgrade to a better movement. In that instance the case-screw marks would be the same, the only way we might know is the fact we are seeing an earlier case with a later movement.

Now, consider this, let's say that I order a new engine from Chrysler in 2012 for my 1991 Dodge Pickup Truck. Then I would be in the same situation as Jim referenced wherein a new movement (engine) was put in the customer's old case. In both instances, the watch and the truck, neither could any longer be considered "original" as what we are then presented with could not possibly have been sold originally the way we now see them.

Replacing the movement on a watch
or some might say "upgrading" the movement would then render the combination as non-original and no use of semantics ever can change that simple fact. As discerning (some might say obsessive) collectors we prefer to collect what are perceived to be original combinations.

Finally, you will find the dictionary defines "original" as "the form in which a thing was first produced or created" which when extrapolated to our watch collection means that an original watch could be defined as a movement, hands, dial and case combination that could have originally been sold to the first retail buyer as we find it today.

Those are my thoughts, let's hear yours!

Lindell

Wink
 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Life Member
Picture of Eugene Buffard
posted
Every one can collect the way they seem fit.

Weather the jeweler installed or I did. A Illinois in a Multi colored non gold case that original had an elgin.
Would not be one I would like in my personal collection.

I say find a 21 Jewel 3 finger 16sz Elgin to put back. And sell or keep the 7 jewel Elgin for parts.

In other words go the extra mile or bucks and

get a nice Illinois movement case for a Illinois.
Keep the Elgins in there same screw mark case. and so On.

There are exceptions to the rule.
But in my mind not to many.

I had a chance to buy a Multi color Non Gold BRT case. I told the dealer at the NaXcc show HE ruined it and I would not be buy it for any price. Because it had 2 sets of screw marks.

It would of been worth Twice of much of his asking price if had left the elgin in the case.
 
Posts: 3326 | Location: Illinois in the USA | Registered: July 06, 2010
Watchmaker
Picture of Leon Harris
posted
Hi All, let me start by saying you CAN remove case marks!! I would make sure the movement number and the case numbers go together (or close to the same year)

Having a Jewelry/Watchmaking back ground there are several process that will remove case scew marks from different cases. So if I know how to do it am sure there are others that know how to do this as well.

I hope that doesn't throw a big old monkey wrench in this topic - case screw marks. Lets see what other say.

Leon
 
Posts: 296 | Location: Livingston, Tennessee USA | Registered: May 20, 2006
IHC Life Member
Picture of Larry Lamphier
posted
I agree Leon.

It is nothing to remove some case screw marks on a case and one will never know the difference. So if the movement and the case are the same year some would go for it thinking they may have an original combination, when all they really have is a "correct" combination.

[Edited for content] DLI

Regards,
Larry
 
Posts: 2733 | Location: Northeastern United States | Registered: February 28, 2010
posted
Lin, Do you have a 91 Dodge PU? Me too, mine is a work truck and still has the original 318 which runs fine.
 
Posts: 301 | Location: Ogallala, Nebraska in the USA | Registered: August 27, 2005
Administrative Assistant
Picture of Dr. Debbie Irvine
posted

Joe,

Lin and I have a '91 Dodge Dakota 4WD with 5-Speed. It is black with red stripes and four off-road lights atop the chrome light bar. The day I first saw it I wanted it and for several years it was my primary transportation. We plan to have dual exhausts and some other speed equipment installed after its twenty-fifth birthday and exemption from emission tests. Like your Dodge ours is very reliable always starts on the first turn of the key. It is part of our family.

Back to the watches, I find myself agreeing with those who find "period correct" to be important on our collectible watches. Extra case-screw marks are a big detriment to value and as we read in this topic it is a big turn-off to serious collectors.

Debbie

Smile
 
Posts: 5386 | Location: Northern Ohio in the U.S.A. | Registered: December 04, 2002
posted
You've also gotta be somewhat realistic in light of the things we're collecting when stacked up against availability.

As some of you may know, I have a pretty decent assortment of Seth Thomas 18s watches. In my collection I have 3 or 4 examples that I feel to be entirely original. If I was a fixated purist my collection would then total 3 or 4 watches.

If I collected Hamiltons, Walthams, or Elgins I'd have a vastly larger collection pool to choose from, instead of the few thousand that I do now. So I have to be happy with a movement that's cased appropriately, meaning a case from the same time period as the movement. As near as I can tell Seth did not factory-case their watches, but let the customer pick one out for the jeweler to install.

When collecting Seths, and I imagine other lesser names like Rockford and Columbus, it seems that when you do find an original combination it's likely to be less than desirable as far as condition goes, so I'm usually on the make for a better dial and case anyway.
 
Posts: 2962 | Location: Western New York in the USA | Registered: March 24, 2008
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