I was looking at a 16 size 23j Ball- listed as a Hamilton 999, however upon examining the movement, I see the small round gold Official Railroad Standard seal. I thought those gold seals were only on the Ball-Walthams.

Thoughts??

maybe president Lindell could answer your question.

Both the 23J Hamilton and the first two runs of the 21J Hamilton 16 size ORRS movements had the gold ORRS 'plug' on the plates.
BTW, these first two 21J runs also had a (non-jeweled) motor barrel fitted and were engraved "motor barrel" around the transmission wheel.

Ed,

Would you know the quanity of the first 2 runs of 21 jewel with motor barrel engraved ??

If u don't have a serial number list handy, telling the early 16S Ball-Hamiltons & Ball-Walthams apart at a glance can be tricky, except for one key difference.

Looking at the movement with the stem up, the top case screw will be on the left of the stem for a Ball-Hamilton and on the right of the stem for a Ball-Waltham.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2121060351/m/5231032281

John,
The runs of 16 size 21 jewel Hamilton Ball movements that have (and are engraved) "motor barrel" are:
B 600,001 to B 601,000 (1,000)
B 602,001 to B 603,300 (1,300)
B 603,701 to B 604,000 (300)
This totals 2,600 movements, but some of the higher number examples may have some errors between 21 and 23 jewels, so this quantity may be slightly overstated.

Thanks Ed, for the run information.....so then, what would be your expert estimate on total 16 sz 21 jewel Ball Hamiltons..

Hello Ed:

Could you post the serial number runs of the 23 Jewel Hamilton's. I see I'm eBay, someone has five brass plugs, brotherhood marked B. of L.F. & E. For sale.

Larry

Larry

I noticed that auction myself. I have more than half expected to see such items surface, one day. Similarly, we have seen NOS Ball-Waltham dials of an early (c1902) style for sale in their original tissue paper. I have come across Ball-Waltham 17J movements that have seen little or no use - truly near mint or mint.

My conclusion has been that someone must have released a hoard in relatively recent times. Presumably the materials were kept aside for many years by the Ball Company as they brought our new styles and models, including movements having more than 17J. Movements having fewer than 19J ceased to be accepted by many railroads, of course.

The replaceable plug was a particular feature of the Ball-Waltham 16s design (and it was carried over into the earlier Ball-Hamilton movements). Apart from the opportunity of promoting the plug as a seal of quality the inclusion of the feature permitted the configuration of a brotherhood watch at the last minute before dispatch from the Ball shop. The procedure was simply to fit a brotherhood plug (like those on now sale) and an appropriate dial. In later years the brotherhood selling scheme faded away and, eventually, so did the plugs.

I hope no-one is tempted to do the same changeout with these plugs. If such trickery has already been perpetrated our estimations of brotherhood serial numbering will be somewhat astray. There may be an explanation as why watches with brotherhood plugs seem to be more common than watches with brotherhood dials.

I admit that I would bid for the plugs out of curiosity but they are not available outside USA. If the winner happens to read this - I'd like to buy one!

I study the early Ball-Waltham watches because they were innovative and evolutionary. They are representative of the thinking of Webb C Ball in his prime. Also, they are very good watches.