While helping at the Elgin Historical Society Museum, I was asked to help with a request they received from Peter Reeve, a member in Austria. I am posting the request in the hope that someone here may be able to help Peter out.
I noted in the last bulletin that you lead the Elgin watch specialists and would like to see if there is any interest or any person that you know that could be of interest in my unusual Elgin pocket watch. I have tried the question part of the magazine with my query but unfortunately not much help and it was not printed for a wider appeal. So perhaps with the colder winter months coming you and your ELGIN colleges can see if you can cast any light on the same.
It was from a query regarding an ELGIN pocket watch Ser No 6494251 yr 1897? Grade 96, class 6, model 2-4, 18 size. of which apart from an oddity with a pre serial number stamp mark and not so common make up, it has a very unusual cannon pinion of a type that I have not experienced on any other European /American make before.
The cannon pinion is in two pieces.
1 The bottom half of the cannon pinion body with the wheel for the set hands drive, the minute pinion. This has a slotted recess in the top for receiving the top half of the cannon pinion body.
2 The top half of the cannon pinion is formed with two sprung lugs which on slotting into the bottom half, grips the main wheels arbour firmly. On top of the top part of the cannon pinion is a boss for the attachment of the minute hand.
See photos of the same.
The workmanship of this split cannon pinion is of the highest quality and I can not accept that it is a watch makers repair ? when a new cannon pinion could be available by purchase, and the amount of workmanship required to form and heat treat the same. Hopefully my description is not to confusing for you and I am sorry that the photos are not of a sharper standard. But they should give a pictorial view of the cannon pinion and the watch as a whole.
It is lever set with the 3oc at the winding crown. The case has an inner swing out works holding ring with the hinge at the crown and the bezel is a screw on. Note the stamp make before the Serial No on the bottom plate and it's the same on the balance bridge and I think somewhere else.
The watch has cleaned up well and for its age going good to time. If anyone has interest with the same and wish for further photographs ( different angles etc) then please E Mail me and I will do what I can to return the same.
Kind regards Peter Reeve 12th November 2006 E Mail = peter.reeve@tele2.at
PS. I am English, retired and a Pocket watch Hobbyist. But I thought I would try you first, then the BHs and if all fails go cap in had to the Swiss.
I know a number of people who are not watch makers who could do this kind of work if they wanted to. It has nothing to do with cost or time. It is the challenge of getting it going again. Offer them money to make the part and they will say no but if they like you they are just as likely to do it for nought. The fact that a new part may be available has little to do with it. Of course the watch may be origional but if it isn't I would not be amazed at the quality of the work. I have often been amazed at what is going on is another persons shed.
Posts: 431 | Location: South Victoria, Australia | Registered: January 18, 2007
In the world of watches I am still very new so I would not dream to say that this is not origional. It may well be. However there are many other people with the skill to make such a repair. Especially in regional locations where a local watchmaker is a thing of the past. If the repairer did not have the correct part and the bit he had was broken I could see an inventive person doing something like this. Perhaps he broke it and had to fix it somehow or other. Perhaps he was doing a favor for a good mate. I think these things are possable. It need not be a wounderous new model.
Posts: 431 | Location: South Victoria, Australia | Registered: January 18, 2007
That's my thinking as well, that what we're seeing may have custom crafted. Perhaps someone with a similar watch might be able to compare theirs with the images.
Earlier today, Samie Smith and I spoke about this and he's doing some research on the subject. I'm sure Samie and some others more knowledgeable about the various service intricacies of older watches will weigh in with worthwhile information.
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
It looks to me that someone took two to make one.The double wheel was filed out to make the slot and a friction end probably came from another pinion that had the usual type of teeth.A good man with only a good file could do this. JMHO Julian Smith
Posts: 188 | Location: Warrenton, North Carolina U.S.A. | Registered: January 12, 2003
Crazy!If this is an after-market repair, the workmanship is a bit incredible.Yet, I can not think of any possible benifit for an original cannon to be made this way. With good magnification, can you tell if the work was done by file or by machine? Very interesting! -Cort
Posts: 536 | Location: El Cerrito, California U.S.A. | Registered: October 04, 2004
You can click on larger sizes under each image. Peter's photos are very good. This image in particular suggests to me that this piece is machine made but I am certainly no expert.
Does appear to be a grade 96. The cannon pinion part number is X50. It doesn't say anything in the book about it being two piece, and also doesn't say anything about the setting wheel underneath it other than giving a part number. Nothing about a "Cannon pinion complete" or anything. It appears to be a logical design. It also looks like a precursor to the other Elgin style cannon pinion that's milled out on two sides - looks like a baseball player's socks. It might be that they made a few of those, and then realized it was much easier to mill out the sides and pinch them in. Just a thought.......!
Posts: 6 | Location: Tatum, Texas USA | Registered: February 10, 2006
Here is a picture of the cannon pinoins on 2 18 size elgin,s the one on the left is a grade 6 model 2 and the one on the right is grade 44 model 5 both of these are pendant set but the cannon pinions are the same as a lever set watch..
I am by no means a expert on anything but it looks like something someone made ,,i would question way Elgin would ever use this type of setup on a cannon pinion or the reason for it,,but never say never.
I remember working on a 18 size wind indicator a few years ago and i belive it had a little bit different type set up under the dial but i just can,,t remember what the differences were.
Ron maybe someone else can give you some more information good luck on your hunt for info.
Doesn't the gearing on the cannon pinion seem overly coarse especially for brass. It would seem the hands would be hard to set precisely. Perhaps a number of wheels of the rocker setting were broken which made the repair economic or replacements hard to find. A grand puzzle! Imagine the cold sweat most of us would break into if told to produce a cannon pinion from scratch. Only a swiss style drilled center pinion would be more daunting. Maybe some advanced apprentice was told to repair this and... I too checked the Blue, Green, And EJ Swigert (?) books. No such pinion.
JJW
Posts: 12 | Location: Antelope, Calif. USA | Registered: May 04, 2006
Here is a photo of three slightly different Elgin cannon pinions for this model. The one on the left is all steel with both sides milled through. The middle one (also enlarged below) has the brass setting wheel and is milled on the sides. On both of these one side is also cut through at its base. The spring action applying friction on the center arbor comes from the spring on one side only. The one on the right also has a brass setting wheel but has a tongue cut half way around the center of the pipe to provide friction on the arbor. None of these could have been modified to make the bottom part of the mystery pinion shown since there is only enough solid steel attached to the bottom section for one side of the split pipe. The entire steel portion, with pinion teeth, would have had to be made anew. However, the upper part of the mystery pinion could easily have been from the upper part of one of the two left-hand pinions if it broke off its base.
Added note: I just looked at a half-dozen more junk movements and several have a 4th type of pinion where the side leaf is cut at the top rather than the bottom. Combining a broken one of these with a top portion from another might have built a pinion similar to (but not exactly like) the one we see at the start of this thread.
Posts: 1455 | Location: Los Angeles, California USA | Registered: January 14, 2003
I have been emailing the thread posts to Peter. He is a day and half behind but I received the following reply:
quote:
Many thanks for your assistance in opening interest and comments on my watch. As for a repair job then the man must be most unusually skilled. One must not forget that both parts are purposefully made to match, and are of as very small size from two solid pieces, also polished and heat treated when there must be hundreds of other ways for a running repair to a part not seen. If necessary and a expert can be agreed upon then I am willing to post over the watch for closer inspection. And by the way what of the unusual symbol stamped before the serial number on both the dial plate and the balance cock. (I think it was somewhere else as well but I forget now it was so long ago since I cleaned it) Keep up the good work. Kind regards Peter
The symbol in front of the full serial number is a code that Elgin used to allow an abbreviated serial number on other parts. It accompanies the full number on the pillar plate, but on the balance cock the symbol represents 6,4xx,xxx (6-million, 400-thousand). It will be used with a partial number on each of the numbered parts. They used a unique symbol for each million/hundred-thousand group.
Posts: 1455 | Location: Los Angeles, California USA | Registered: January 14, 2003
Thanks Jerry, I didn't know that about the serial number symbols on the dial plate.
(I guess I need to look at more dial plates! )
I received the following from Peter:
quote:
Thanks for the information from Terry Treiman - its the best answer yet. BUT though the lugs from a broken top half (bottom one side slotted) could be filed and machined with a recess to lead on to the post to match, for this is reducing the larger side to match smaller sprung side, it will not answer for the bottom half for neither side is reduced for the spring fit action. ??But 8 out of 10 for the best plausible theory so far, but i´m not fully happy about it. Take another look at the both halves again on my photos.
Many thanks again with kind regards Peter
Hopefully Peter will be on this board himself very soon!
Try looking at this differently. Assume for a moment it is not just an unusual repair and ask -- if this is intentional what if anything does it allow to be done that can not be done if the watch had a regular cannon pinion ?
It looks as if it allows the minute hand to be easily removed and replaced - if that is so, then why ?
dan
Posts: 423 | Location: West Walton, United Kingdom | Registered: November 16, 2005
Good Question Mr Mitchell. But were the regular cannon pinions not with out fault? Maybe some Engineer in R&D wanted to produce something better than the regualar. When you have snapped this cannon pinion on and off you will realise that it is very firm indeed. If one looks back at the photos of Terry Treiman these vagley simular canon pinions, even if they did work, do not look to be trouble free and the regular indentation to the side walls for gripping often gave problems and needed tightening. Is it posible to go back to the year of manufacture 1895-6. What were the production cannon pinions of the time?. When were the samples from Terry in use? Elgin were constantly redeveloping their watches, was this a new trial design that because of it more expensive production was discontinued. Remembering the Americans were well advanced with Fitness for Purpose production. Sorry lots of questions. Its just that I have a feeling that it can only be a product of a watch manufactures engineering dept. But you can disapoint me. Regards to you all. Peter Reeve
Posts: 2 | Location: Villach, Austria | Registered: March 10, 2007
Could this be a patent fight? Waltham seems much more straightforward. Is there someone out there in watch cyberland who can search cannon pinions and/or keyless work. Thanks, JJW
JJW
Posts: 12 | Location: Antelope, Calif. USA | Registered: May 04, 2006
Due to the quality of the machining on Peter's canon pinion and the amount of variation in canon pinions from the factory I see merit in Peter's suggestion that his example may represent some factory experimentation. To clarify what we might know already I have again gone through my movements to see when the different forms were used. I have also made another composite picture showing the three basic types and two variants (brass/steel & all steel)
Type 1 pinions appear on my movements from 710,225 to 1,706,012. Type 2 pinions appear on 821,860 and 3,165,719. Type 3 pinions appear in 7,687,819 and 11,560,885. Since all of these are in my parts movement tray I cannot vouch for the originality of the pinions to each movement. Nevertheless it seems the the type numbers I have assigned may also be loosely chronological. Peter's example may represent an attempted improvement on types 1 & 2. Both of those, with the single spring stalk supporting the top of the pinion, seem more fragile than may have been desired.
I do not have enough examples of the all-steel pinion (variant b) to know if these fit a particular timeframe, but have examples in both type 1 and type 3 pinions.
Posts: 1455 | Location: Los Angeles, California USA | Registered: January 14, 2003
Folks: The 1887 Lapp& Flershem reprint catalogue (McCreight) shows several models of 18 size Elgin lever set material. There are 4 or 5 different price classes of cannon pinion corresponding to finish and costituent materials. All the pinions are lanterned and have 2 pinion segments ( the lower meshes with the setting wheel). The catalogue is black and white and there are no verbal descriptions. Just tiny pen and ink drawings. The modern singl cp does not arrive until the convertible model. Fascinating stuff. JJW
JJW
Posts: 12 | Location: Antelope, Calif. USA | Registered: May 04, 2006
Dear Gents, I Have been away for a week. So is that it then . No positive identification?? Anyway Many thanks for your time and frendly help, Kind regards to you all Peter
Posts: 2 | Location: Villach, Austria | Registered: March 10, 2007
Patrick the part being in question at the time this thread was active was 7 years ago in 2007 and it concerned a canon pinion. But as to your question, yes, the parts all have the same serial number.
The reason for the thread concerned an unusual canon pinion that is a two stage or two piece canon pinion. The gist of the conversation was to try and determine whether it was an experimental two piece canon pinion OR whether a watchmaker had assembled/fashioned/blacksmith-ed a working canon pinion from different pieces.
It was never determined in the thread whether it was a factory experimentation or a blacksmith-ed job.
regards, bb
Posts: 6376 | Location: Texas in the USA | Registered: July 27, 2009
Arrived from Austria a few days ago. Even without the unusual (unique?) pinion, it's a nice addition to my small collection. It's not in my "main line" of interest - but it serves as a nice contrast. I'm happy.
Kenneth Sloan
Posts: 222 | Location: Alabama in the USA | Registered: February 01, 2014
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