Good day everyone. I'm new to the chapter what a great site for information. There are so many knowledgable folks here. I have a question in regards to my 992B and 996. My Hamilton 992B Ser# C10022 has a 519 Dial. In reading some of the posts here it seems that a majority have the RWS dials. The watch appears to be original, at least the BOC case has no other screw marks and is in very nice condition. Granted it could have been recased. Ser# of case is H528346. Would the 519 dial be appropriate for this watch? Also have a 996 with a DS dial with script signiture. What period did Hamilton make the change to block signitures?
Keep up the nice work!

Mike

Hello and welcome.
You may find this post helpful.

Wonderful Aaron. I appriciate the response and educational material.
Happy to be a collector,

Mike

Michael,
Welcome to the IHC 185 message board. Your 992B was probably made late 1940 or early 1941 and most were advertised with the RWS signature as you mentioned.

That said, Hamilton had problems early on with processing the DS (double-Sunk) enamel dials, (specifically the No. 536, 537, 532) and designed SS (single-sunk) dials as substitutes.

It's (possible) they used the (519) non-RWS HG enamel dial as a substitute. Just a thought.

Keep in mind that without documentation, i.e. sales slips, or box and label, its not possible to know the original configuration.

Below is the non-RWS DS, 519 dial on the left and the RWS, DS, 536 dial on the right.

Hope this helps.

Robert

Thanks Robert. The 992B has the dial on the left. It is all in a #10 Wadsworth case.

This is a great forum with wonderful people. I'm enjoying my newfound hobby.

Hello Michael

What we have seen with advertising, catalogs, and boxed examples is that the 519 dial was gone when the 992b was introduced. Ham did use some non RWS single sunk dials particularly during the war years, but most collectors would want to see a RWS porcelain dial on it. Single sunk block HAMILTON porcelain could also be correct.

Not sure about the script Hamilton time periods. Terry Hall would be the best info source for that.

Charlie

What I say is "I don't know" for sure one way or the other.

Don's post indicates new dial introductions for the 992b ....under 1945 "June 5 - 519 - 16 size, HG, double sunk, with name Hamilton only - 2nd bit numbers 1 to 60 Markers replace seconds numbers around dial. (Same as HG dial before [sic] being marked
Hamilton
Railway Special"

So it appears they were still around.

The seconds markers is a little confusing ... I read this to be no seconds numerals in the seconds bit, ie only markers. If correct, this does not describe the 519 you are showing and we all know. Have not seen such a dial that I can recall, ie no numbers in seconds bit.

Don's post was Jan 2005. Terry posted on 185 on Nov 3, 2005 "
it has not been determined the 519 dial was used from the factory on the 992B.... "
Terry had Don's info at that time, so I will assume he meant that no boxed examples have been documented as original. Here's the link to Terry's comment
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2...111096871#8111096871

Michael Serial # C10022 would certainly hit in the 1945 era that Don is referencing. Terry could possibly date the case #, but he is no longer posting on 185. You might catch him on the NAWCC green board and ask the question.

From a probability standpoint, I am guessing 100,000 519 dials were used in the 1930's prior to introduction of the 992b - How many, if at all, were used in 1945 - 0, 50, 100, 500 maybe. Just can't say for sure.

Charlie

Charlie,
Thanks, I believe we would need additional information before making a positive identication.

Hamilton seemed to use the term "HG" on most of the early labels that I have seen and not the dial No. as seen later. This would have allowed them to use either the 519 or 536.

They did however use the dial No. on the early SS dial labels, i.e., 080 and etc.

Robert

I would think that "No number in the seconds bit" would mean the numeral 6 was absent.

I have always been confused by reference to "Markers replace seconds numbers around dial". I have always assumed that they meant to say "minute" instead of "seconds". There are several variations of the HG dial and they have the same numbers and markers. At any rate, your dial was reintroduced in 1945 without the Railway Special. This may have been because of the need to get watches out after the war was winding down. I have not seen the actual memo to which referred to here. Just record of the memo.

Don

Below is the predecessor of the No. 519 dial as shown in an (excerpt) from Hamilton's (1929) Catalog.

Robert

Michael,

Can you post a close up of your 519 dial on your 992b. Would like to see the HAMILTON lettering.

Could it be a 577A, that Robert just posted. This was the dial I was referring in my comment.

Charlie

What a change from the No. 577 to 577A!

Robert

Thanks for the wealth of information. here is the 992B ser# C10022 with 519 diasl.

Sorry, one more time...

Robert,

You will note that there are four dates on this drawing. Each time the dial was modified a new drawing was made and a new date added. So you see that the original drawing was on 5/3/1933. The dial was modified on 4/26/35, 10/18/35, and 4/16/37. The last date is the date of this drawing. 8 1/2 x 11 copies of the drawing were all over the place, because many people needed them. When a new drawing was released, you had to label all the old drawings as obsolete, so that an old drawing is not used by mistake. Many that we have are stamped with a warning notice that this drawing is no longer valid. This one was hand labeled with the date of the next modification. The library has boxes in the basement that contain hundreds of file folders, each labeled with the part number. In each folder is a series of these drawings. Someday I, or some other volunteer, will sit down and study the changes of a given dial.

It is all a matter of time. There is so much to look at and so little time.

I keep hoping that someone like Robert shows up and wants to do such research for an article for the Bulletin. Columbia has some nice B & Bs to stay in and there is lots to do in the area for family members who are not into watches. They could lock dad in the basement with old Hamilton documents, while the rest of the family visits Pennsylvania Dutch Country, Hershey Park and discount malls.

Don

Don,
Thank you very much. It is my hope to visit the Library for about 3 days before long.

Based on the 519 blueprint note, the development of the No. 536 Hamilton (RWS) started as early as Jan. 1938.

Thanks again,
Robert

How do you tell if Michael has a 519 or a 577A. Looking at the type of the O in Hamilton, it appears his is a 577A.

Is there something more obvious that distinguishes the two.

Charlie,
From this point of view, it looks like Michael's dial font matches the 519 blueprint.

Robert

Don,
I have a brother in Hummelstown, PA. Next time I'm visiting I'd like to check out that library. very interesting about the two dials and such subtle differences. Thanks again for everyone's interest to help me.
Mike

Robert

I see subtle differences in the most of the lettering, the way the L is finished, the T, A, etc.

I know this is nick picking, but just trying to understand the difference. Can you put up a pic of Michaels and the 577A image side by side. I don't understand why a separate # was issued in 1945.

Thanks.

Charlie,
I suppose there would have been some differences otherwise they would have used the same No.

I'm not sure the image below is clear enough to distinguish any difference.

Robert

Wow, this is so interesting. I enjoy learning the 'tricks of the trade' so to speak. You are all so knowledgable. I'm just getting into pocket watches, as my interest began with wrists several years ago.
I have many questions regarding Illinois also that I will post soon.
Mike

I'm willing to accept that 519 is 577A .. both porcelain dials. just don't know why they would assign a new number.