Hello I am a new member and this is my first post so please don't be too hard on me!!! Can anyone direct me to information on categorizing the 12S pocket watches? Many of the movements will be inscribed with names such as J. Garfield, Master,
Elite, Autocrat, Victor, Stewart....etc. Is there any significance or relation ship as far as quality?
In the 20's were they cataloged reflecting cost and quality? Just was trying to get a handle on these
12S Illinois models since I happen to have a small bunch of them. Thanks very much Andrew

Andrew, WELCOME to IHC185. You will find that most of us continue to learn more about watches BECAUSE we strive to find answers to the many questions that arise from our membership.

Regarding your question, all Illinois watches are considered good quality, collectible Jeweled movement watches. The 12 size named watches seem to (generally) be a model name attached by Illinois Watch Co. as a marketing thing. The range of value is more due to the Jewel count, finish level and and number of watches produced of that name. For example an "Ariston" 23 Jewel with an 18K factory case is valued at up to $975.00, but a "Sterling" 17J in ordinary case is valued for as little as $40.00.

A most informative and highly detailed watch price guide published and is available through our club with a nice protective jacket which gives you a very complete listing of 12 size Illinois Pocket watch values as well as those for many other watches.

To get that go to:
https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6019371/m/2973932487

David thank you for the reply,it was helpful! I did ordered the Guide and hopefully it will arrive soon. I am partial to Illinois as my grandfather and great grandfather's pocket watches are Illinois (which I have) I like the little 12S as they fit in my jean's/chino's watch pockets and the larger sizes don't, so if you are not wearing a vest you are out of luck. Thank you again!! Andrew

Andrew,

Welcome to the world of 12s watches. The price guide talks about the 12s watches a bit. They came along well after the watch companies honed their skills turning out Rail Road grade 16s watches.

Many 12s watches perform at RR specs... but don't have the history associated with them.. and in large part were turned out in huge numbers.

The market is flooded with Illinois 17j autocrats and the like. Most of the other 17j "private label" watches are simply rebadged autocrats... Some have a specialty following and are collectable in themselves... such as "The 5th Avenue" Some times, these were made in other sizes and it can be fun to collect all the sizes with in a narrow group.

I have bought up several 1xts and a few 3xts... these were new designs made in smaller numbers, which translates to higher current market value.

I highly recommend specializing in a specific make or style... you can get real good real fast if you keep your focus... otherwise you end up like me, spending a lot of money on shiny objects with no real value.

A more accessible and excellent resource for sorting out the different grades of Illinois 12-size watches is this guide.

Thank you Ethan

Andrew, open the link to the grade 405 and it will go a long way to answering your question regarding named watches.

Welcome aboard Andrew!!! I know you have a lot of questions about your 12 Sz. Illinois watches and I know there are folks here who can certainly help you. Enjoy!!!

Rob
www.pocketwatchrepairs.net

Thank you all so much for the direction, this will keep me preoccupied for a long it seems!!!

Paul thanks the 405 list is huge help

You should get a copy of the Illinois Blue Book

Illinois Blue Book Post

I too thank Ethan for the guide. Very helpful. One question: does anyone have any idea of the proportion of two toned Illinois 12s produced (I'm lucky to have a few)compared to the standards ones? Are some two toned more valuable in different grades?

thanks,
Jim

I have no idea on the percentage of two-tones, but I don't think they are common on Illinois 12s and 13s. In fact, I don't have a single two-tone example in my fairly large collection of Illinois 12s and 13s. In contrast, two of my three South Bend 431s are in two-tone cases.

Here's how my Illinois 12s and 13s are cased.

Grade 274: 1: multicolor 14k hunter
Grade 299: 1: one-tone ygf OF
Grade 409: 1: one-tone ygf OF
Grade 410: 3, all one-tone 14k: 1 yg hunter, 1 wg OF and 1 yg OF
Grade 435: 1: one-tone 14k yg OF
Grade 437: 1: one-tone 14k yg OF
Grade 438: 3: All one-tone solid gold: 1 14k wg OF, 1 14k yg OF with enamel decoration, 1 18k wg with enamel decoration
Grade 439: 3: 2 one-tone 14k yg OF with enamel decoration, 1 platinum
Grade 510: 5, all one-tone: 3 ygf OFs, 2 14k yg OFs
Grade 525: 2: 1 one-tone 14k wg OF, 1 aluminum OF
Grade 528: 2, both one-tone 14k wg OF
Grade 538: 5, all one-tone OF: 1 14k yg, 2 18k wg, 2 14k gg
Grade 539: 1: one-tone 14k gg
23j Illini: 2, both one-tone: 1 14k yg OF, 1 ygf OF

Ethan, now I'm wondering if we talking about the same thing...I've been assuming (in error?)that colored checkered and swirled movements were considered two toned.

My error. I thought you were referring to how the watches were cased. At least in the grades I collect, two-tone movements don't exist, and I think I know why. All my 12s and 13s were made in the 1909-1927 period, most of them were sold factory-cased or private-label cased, and all of them were high to very high grade movements. I think most two-tone movements were made in an earlier period when watch movements were sold uncased. Movements needed eye-appeal to attract buyers, especially lower grade movements.

That makes sense. You have a nice collection though.

Speaking of checkered movements, this just came in from ebay: Illinois Central 17J 12s.