I have over the years tried to collect all four of the Elgin "Lace Doily" quartet of the following grades, 161 3/4 OF, the 155 3/4 Hunter, along with the 246 3 finger OF and the 243 3 finger Hunter. All of these are 16 size and 17 jewel pendant sets. On some of them I have collected more than one, in the case of the 161.

But the one grade that has eluded me is the 246 since only 2,000 were made and when they do show up you have to shed body parts to even get close in the bidding.

I finally snagged a 246 as a movement only but had a perfect case to slide it in. It has a C. D. Peacock dial that is not perfect but I am totally happy with it.

The case is a 20 year Wadsworth Referee that is like new except for some "horse's backside" that decided to test it with acid on the inside of the case back

Photos to follow and comments welcomed.

Very nice looking Elgin.

Claude, is it the damaskeen or the design on the winding wheels that make these "lace doilys"? Also, I have had several CD Peacock cases and I believe a dial. They were all associated with Elgins. Did Peacock specialize in Elgins or is it coincidental?
BTW, nice watch

Mike it is the dmk effect on the winding wheels, Elgin only put this design on the 4 grades mentioned. There were 4,000 grade 161's, 6,000 grade 155's and then the later bridge models 4,000 243's and 2,000 246's so there were only 16,000 total in the 4 grades. The 246 and the 161 were the open face versions but the 246 was half the production of the 161's. The early ones 155/161 some had gold (real gold not brass) escape wheels which is a bit unusual.
All are pendant set, all 17j but very high grade watches.

On the C D Peacock, I guess they are a big jewelry store in Chicago that started in 1837 and sold upper end Elgins. It appears the Peacock dial is sought after, this is my first.

Claude, Elgin also used those fancy winding wheels on some Grade 270s, none of which are classified as Lace Doilys, athough just as lace-like. See below for a photo of a Grade 270 I recently culled from my collection.

Ethan in regards to the "lace doily" grades all of them have these winding wheel designs originally as a rule, barring swapping and breakage. The grade 270 has at least 2-4 different designs on a grade that was only made 2x more than the grade 161.

Did Elgin do strange things, yes, since I have a pendant set grade 370 that is not a franken-watch and a true model 7 grade 150 but in the case of the 270 I have not seen anything that says run 2 or runs 2-4 will have the lace doily wheels.

With the 270 you can see them with mostly with dished wheels or Father Time type wavy line wheels and a few variations of the dished wheels. All the ads I have seen show the 155/161/243/246 with the lace doily pattern that is not true for the 270 so maybe that is why they are not considered "lace doilys".

In the case of your 270 I have not seen many others out there with this wheel design since it is very different from the other designs, maybe Elgin used some left over stock but that could be anyone's guess.

If you look the first runs of the 270 had the Father Time type wavy line wheels, typcially the later/last 4000 270's marked Veritas have the dished wheels. your appears to have a serial number that looks to be 11,xxx,xxx if you look at other 270's in this serial number range they have the wavy line Father Time design.

A good indication of this is to look at the Roy E and Bill M price guide book 2 on page 84 there is an ad that shows the 156/162 270 243/246 and the 280 along with some other Elgins.

The 156/162 have dished wheels, the 270 has Father Time wavy line wheels, the 243/246 lace doily wheels and the 280 a less ornate lace doily look. That was a 1904 catalog.

Since the 243/246 are so close to the 270 it would be easy enough to swap the wind wheels with no issue.

So, the primary difference between the "lace doily" and mine is the damaskeen on the winding wheels? I have grades 244, 381, 339, and 241. I know this is an over simplification but is it reasonably in the park?

Mike if you are only talking about that they were 3 finger bridges then you could lump a few more grades in. At the time the 155/161 were Elgin's 2nd best 16 size grade, only to the 156/162 which were 21 jewel variants.

To give an impression how expensive the 155/161 was (movement only) in 1896 they were $40 and the 155/1162 was $80. From the same 1896 time frame ad the Illinois 18s 21j Bunn Special was $46. The Illinois grade 116 16s 16j was only $36

If you look to 1904 the 155/162 grades were $100 and the 270 was $50 and the 243/246 was $44. The 241/244 was listed on the same ad page at $23. The 280 at $40 and the $242 at $35. The 18s 21j Father Time (probably the 252) was listed at $40.

The lace doilys were just a much higher finished and adjusted pendant set 16 size 17 jewel grade watch than the others you mention.

That certainly implies more than just different damaskeening.

Ive always loved the doily elgin patterns, but have yet to ever buy one. Maybe one of these days...

Jared

quote:

is it the damaskeen or the design on the winding wheels that make these "lace doilys"?

Mike, Elgin made some high grade 16s 3 finger bridge movements, the 270, 280 and the 341 would be good examples, adjusted to positions, high degree of workmanship but from the surface on these 4 grades the reason they call them "lace doilys" is because they all share the same dmk effect on the winding wheels.

So without taking them apart or checking the serial number the quickest way to tell a lace doily is the effect on the wheels.