I have a model 1883 Appleton Tracy with double hour hands. Serial # 5704426. I assume they were used by someone who traveled between time zones frequently so they were not always adjusting the time. Railroad employee? I've wondered if the hands were put on during manufacture or when the purchaser bought the movement at the retailer. Although it's possible a subsequent owner had them installed. One is blued and one is gold. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Mary Ann

Here's the movement. The gold flashing is beautiful, but I can't seem to get it to show up well.

Have you looked at the service markings? Given the period of the watch it could well have been a Conductor's watch.

I have an Elgin Model 8 Veritas Lehigh Valley RR watch that has the actual service marking of the 2nd hour hand being added in the back cover service markings. Maybe yours has somnething like that too.

This is the watch

Hello Dave. I hope you are feeling better. The flu makes you feel miserable! There are some service markings but I don't know what they mean. I've been told there are in code. If I jotted some down, would that be helpful?

Probably not the codes, in mine the double hour hand was actually noted as separately fitted by the watchmaker, rather than the usual gold or red colored "2nd-hand". By the looks of yours, the less rust resistant gold colored "extra" hand is legitimate. It even has the "aging" (some rust) one would expect of a non-blued hand.

Thank you, Dave. There is no mark specifically referencing the addition of the hands. I'll assume they were added sometime during it's long life.

Nice watch for getting better photo's what I do is take about 4 or 5 photo's and pick the best delete the bad on the soft ware that came with camra you can touch up the photo's.

Mary Ann, One of the more interesting things about the "real double hands" hands that I have and have seen on other watches is the fact they are actually 2 hands! The watchmaker or supplier actually swage-lock the collar of the 2nd hand inside of the first hand which usually has been broached out and had the collar removed. Then they refit the set back to the neck of the hour wheel.

As you can see the hub of the gold hand has been swaged over the black hand on yours, I am very sure that yours is a factory "made for" double hour hand, mainly because I have seen the ads for the Black/Gold hands offered by the watch companies.

These were mostly used on the 24 hour dials but i have seen them on several different watches and dials..I have a nos Hamilton 18 size 2 time zone hands and they are made in one piece instead of being made from 2 hands..

Samie, I agree, the more recently done red/black hands I think are 1-piece swiss-made. These early hands were actually made to order for the watch companies of the time when this watch was done. My NOS Black/Gold Hands from the estate of an L.A. watchmaker are the earlier 2-piece type. They are similar to Mary Anne's watch hands. The Veritas LVRR hands are actually fitted by the watchmaker who recorded and dated his work in the back cover and they are two distinctly different styles. Something I would have asked for too if I were to have that done.

Thank you Dave and Samie for the info. So they were probably installed early in it's life. My next question is whether you would recommend that I get the rust removed from the gold hand. I have seen some previous posts discussing this. I would have to send it to someone to do the work. It's kept in a clean enviroment, not air-tight but close. What do you think?

Mary Ann

PS - Hope you are feeling better Dave.

Mary Ann, As the minute hand is not a "match" to the hour hand(s), any effort to "renovate" them are the same (to me at least) as refinishing a piece of Victorian era furniture. Were it mine, I would keep it in clean running order and enjoy in my imagination the life it led keeping some trainmaster "on time".

Thanks Dave. I was leaning that way, too. Leave well enough alone.

Mary Ann

Mary Ann I noticed your post, and Bill Manders recent post about his Waltham Crescent Street with dual time zone hands. I have been doing some research on dual time zones in Canada on the Canadian Pacific Railway where we change time 5 times from East Coast to West Coast that includes Atlantic, Eastern, Central, Mountain, and Pacific Standard Time Zones. From the East Coast at Halifax, Nova Scotia we change from Atlantic Standard Time to Eastern Standard Time at Vanceboro, Maine as the CPR ran through the state of Maine from Nova Scotia to New Brunswick. Going west from Montréal we change from Eastern Standard Time to Central Standard Time at Fort William, Ontario, at Broadview, Manitoba from Central Standard Time to Mountain Standard Time, and at Field, British Columbia from Mountain Standard Time to Pacific Standard Time. On the Canadian National Railways the change from Atlantic Standard Time to Eastern Standard Time takes place at Campbellton, New Brunswick, from Eastern Standard Time to Central Standard Time at Armstrong, Ontario, from Central Standard Time to Mountain Standard Time at Biggar, Saskatchewan, and from Mountain Standard Time to Pacific Standard Time at Jasper, Alberta.

I referred to a Hamilton watch parts catalog circa 1925 Hamilton Part #247 18 Size Double Hour Hands, and Hamilton Part #543 16 Size Double Hour Hands. I have shown two examples of the 18 size hands, New Old Stock from my accumulation of Hamilton watch parts. You can see front and back views of the hands, the front shows a red finish almost like red cellophane, while the backside is gold, which makes me wonder if the red finish wore off we would end up with gold on the front.

Hamilton Part Number 247 front view

Hamilton Part Number 247 Reverse View

Thank you, Larry, for your information on the double hour hands. The table with Hamilton parts numbers will be helpful to me as I begin learning about railroad watches. Yes, I wonder if, when the red wears off, would there be the gold underneath? I guess we will have to wait to find out.

For the Canadian railways, a double hour hand would be helpful with the time zone changes, but they would still have to manually adjust at some point, but only half as often. I had a vision run through my mind while reading your post of a watch with five hour hands. Now that would be a very busy dial!

I went back and looked very closely again at my A/T. What looks like rust is actually the gold "finish" wearing away. Still, I am going to leave it as is and enjoy it like it has been for many years.

The interesting fact I found in my research is that all the communities on the railways where time changed were divisional points where train crews were changed off. The railways did this to avoid any confusion with overlap, take Field, British Columbia for example, while the Time Zone change took place there, geographically the time actually changed about 30 miles west of Field near the community of Golden, British Columbia. I talked to a retired engineer who worked out of Revelstoke, British Columbia the divisional point 120 miles west of Field, he said that the only railway employees that were required to have their watches equipped with dual time zone hands were the crews that worked in the Field yard, this would be the stationmaster, and crews working yard engines in the terminal. Working there in the days of timetable and train order authority, it would be important for the crews and supervisors to have dual time zone equipped pocket watches to keep track of and be in the clear of arriving and departing superior trains. I remember the Seth Thomas Station Comparison Clock at Field, was also equipped with red and blue dual time zone hands, this was for the inward and outward crews from Revelstoke who would be using Pacific Standard Time, and the crews from Calgary, Alberta who would be governed by Mountain Standard Time, I have attached a photo of a late model Waltham 23 Jewel from the 1950s equipped with dual time zone hands, these ones look like the red hand was painted with nail polish. I am going to do some more research on the United States Railroads to see where they changed time.

Larry Buchan

Very interesting information, Larry. That makes sense that yard workers were required to have watches with dual hour hands to monitor traffic as they were located near where time zones change. Thank you.

A Canadian National Railways dual time zone Universal Geneve Railway approved wristwatch circa 1970s-1980s