Years ago I saw some old (1890s)demerit books that had come from the regional offices of the C & A Railroad. In one place a workman had been assessed demerits, although he was no longer employed. It was said that he had hired out, worked a few days, and disappeared with the watch inspector's loaner. I found that interesting because he was hired without a watch, and was given a loaner during his probationary period as a new hiree. But I've also heard that railroad men were offered a deal on their watches because on their salaries they could not afford a high end railroad watch with an outlay of cash. The company would take a certain percentage out of their salary until the watch was paid off. My question is this: did the watch companies offer any sort of pay-as-you-go arrangement, or did the railroad companies provide the funds on time?

By the way, here is a related observation. Brakemen and firemen did not have the same watch requirements as conductors and engineers. On most lines, as I understand it, they could pass inspection with 17 jewel watches, while the conductors and engineers were required to have 21 jewel watches. This means that when they started working they did not have to pay out as much for their watches as they did later when they were promoted. A nice arrangement. Then as time went on the older heads would buy better watches and sell their old ones to the younger men. The watch was an indication of status. Many of the railroad men considered their watches to be keepsakes, and passed them down through the family. It was as much considered to be an important item of wealth and presteige as a functional necessity of their job.

Steve when I hired on the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1973 I was required to buy a railway approved watch as a condition of my employment. A brand-new railway approved Accutron 218 wristwatch at that time cost $185. The CPR provided payroll deduction to pay for your watch over a period of four months, this was to help avoid the hardship of having to pay out this sum of money initially when hiring on. My preference was to buy a used Hamilton for $50. All employees on the CPR, and every other railroad I have researched over the years had no provision where firemen and brakemen could buy and use pocket watches with less jewels than locomotive engineers and conductors. The railways provided lists of approved watches, and watch inspectors that could be used by employees.

Of course many people have observed that different railroads had different standards for watch requirements, and I don't go back far enough to know the entire history, but I've seen a few references to people with different jobs having different requirements for their watches on the railroad. The one that I am looking at right now is a letter from Lt. Col. George Townsend in answer to a general question that I wrote him in August of 1974. He states, "Depending on what RR man you were talking to you could get a completely different story. It also depends whether he was the engineer or fireman of porter. The porter, fireman, or man running the dining car could have a $ watch or hunting 7 jewel watch, what ever he could afford. Very few people working for the RR required a wattch that had to meet and pass time standard." I assume George was talking about earlier days of railroading. Things changed a lot between the turn of the century and the 1970s.

Steve and Larry, My dad worked for the Frisco Railroad a very short time, 1947 to 1949, while owning a very small farm in Oklahoma. He had to work for the Railroad to make ends meet, with a wife and four kids....
He was neither a fireman, conductor, engineer or porter instead he ran the crews that kept the bed & tracks in shape for the trains to run smoothly. He was responsible for the tracks from Madil, Oklahoma to Ada, Oklahoma. I say all this to make this point, even he was required to own an approved watch and the one that he chose was a B.W. Raymond, 21j, 16s....I have no idea how he paid for it, we were no more than 'dirt farmers' at the time and he even did some 'share cropping'....anything to get by....
I'm sure that he was required to wear the watch because of the necessity of knowing the schedules of the trains in order to have the tracks clear when they were needed. I would love to post photos of his watch because it is really 'work worn', however, my older brother has the watch with him in Oklahoma....
So I don't know what the requirements were prior to the 40's nor do I know what they were from the 40's to the 70's, but I do know that if he were to be given a choice during that time he would have taken the 'cheapest' way out.

I can see why a crew caller would need to have the an accurate watch. My step father told me once that his father found a B. W. Raymond when he was plowing a field. He claimed that when he took it home it was in working order. That sounded very far fetched to me, but I took it as a statement on the legendary reliability of the B. W. Raymond.

I do remember how proud he was of the watch, he never called it an Elgin, but always, his B.W.Raymond....

I still runs today even though it has never, to my knowledge, been serviced....

Regards,
Jerry

Hello Steve:

Crafts on the railways were usually divided into Ops and Non-Ops, firemen, locomotive engineers, and other employees designated by the railways such as section foremen would fall into the Ops or Operative category, and Non-Ops porters, clerks, and shop employees would fall into the Non-Ops or Non-operative category. The Non-Ops could carry any type of watch they wanted to, and were not subject to the rules of railway watch inspection.

I don't have an historian's view of this, only a family view, like Jerry. Both of my grandfathers worked for the Missouri-Kansas-Texas (Katy) Railroad from 1922 to 1956, first in Denison, Tx. and then in Bellmead, Tx. (Waco suburb) when the shops opened there. These men were absolutely dedicated to their B.W. Raymond watches, and they were machinists and mechanics--the men who kept the steel wheels true and round, and could tear apart a steam and later a diesel engine, for a living. One of them was given a Hamilton 992B when he retired in '56 and I have that freshly cleaned and oiled. But he used a 1909 Grade 240 Elgin Raymond with 19 jewels at the "railroad shop" every day. This one has been recased, has a beat up dial, and needs to be cleaned (I'm trying to get this one in shape for my nephew to carry to Iraq in May.) My point is, he used a 1909 Raymond, which he must have bought used from some other railroad worker when my grandfather started his MKT employment in 1922. This might reinforce the pass-down theory of Ops workers selling high grade watches to new employes, and perhaps buying higher grade ones as required for their jobs. Incidentally, the 1909 B W Raymond still smells like the railroad shop in Bellmead where I went with my mother and grandmother to take dinner to the men at night. They ate sitting on the running board of the old Ford sedan outside. My father worked their briefly after he returned from the US Army and Okinawa fighting. My father gave me the middle name of "Elgin" because he so admired the B.W. Raymonds.

John

That is neat being named after Elgin.

Tom

Yes, Tom, I've always been grateful for my father's naming wisdom. A good Elgin watch was just a tool, a superb tool that matched its job. What was very interesting was growing up in a railroad town in the 1940s and 50s. Everyone in Bellmead worked for the Katy Railroad and ran their lives in a very punctual way, frugal and deliberate way--having survived the Great Depression, a world war, and most were religious and spiritual in their approach to daily life. A neighbor of ours was a watchmaker who serviced many of the railroad watches, knew all the railroad workers and his shop became one of my hangouts after school, until I discovered girls. My father was, by then, the local school district superintendent. He and the watchmaker were buddies, along with Gaines de Graffenreid, the great Waco Winchester rifle collector whose collection is the basis of the Texas Ranger Museum in Waco. Deer hunting, trains, watches, football games, admirable teachers, wonderful grandfathers. Great times, interesting people and railroads and watches were at the center of it all. I was so fortunate to have grown up in a small town, a railroad town, among very capable men and women, hardened and strengthened by the Depression and World War II. They MADE things every day that were useful and essential to us. I could never live up to their standards, but I have tried. Elgin is a nice name to have.

Hey John Elgin, that my friend is one heck of a story and I can certainly identify with it since I grew up in a similar town, and at the same time, in Oklahoma....ROFF, OK....about 800 people at it's top population and now down to around 650 or so.... but still kicking along.

It is great that you have cared for both of your grandfather's watches and that you will pass one along to your nephew to carry with him on his tour of duty....I'm sure when he returns he will have a few stories to tell regarding his B.W. Raymond and we would like to hear all of them....

Please wish him all the best and "SEMPER FI"....

Regards,
Jerry

This concept of brakemen and locomotive firemen trading up from 17 jeweled, to 21 jeweled watches when they were promoted to conducters and locomotive engineers is ridiculous. brakemen and locomotive firemen had to write up their examination for promotion many years before they could hold a position. They were called out for trips as conductors and locomotive engineers for many years before they could hold a job in that position in their own right. I could just envision the conversation when a crew clerk would call Joe Smith the brakemen, or Ron Elliott the locomotive firemen, for a spare trip running, to which Joe or Ron would reply sorry I can't go, I only have a 17 jewel BW Raymond.

I will defer to your knowledge of the railway system requirements, Larry....I certainly am no authority on the matter nor was my father....

All I know is that he came home one evening with the B.W. Raymond, 16s, 21j and that is the watch that he carried for the short time he worked on the railroad....where he purchased it, I have no idea....I do know that he was a trader of sorts, heck, he could have traded something for it....

I will have the watch this summer and will post some pics of it then....the main reason will be to show how rough he treated the watch just in taking it out of his 'bib' overalls that he wore while working.... He didn't really gain respect for the watch till later, because that is when he really started taking care of it....

Regards,
Jerry

Jerry:

I am sure there were a lot of railroad grade pocket watches floating around at the time your father worked in the shops. There were probably lots of ex-brakemen etc. who were furloughed during the Depression who sold their watches. I remember when I worked at the CPR's repair shop at Ogden, there was an employee who worked as a boilermaker helper, he was formerly employed in the running trades as a locomotive fireman, and due to injuries was given the opportunity for a lighter duty job in the Railways shops. he would no longer require a railway grade pocket watch, and would be in a situation where he might have sold it.

Well, I love these remeniscences. That's one great thing about this club!
I was puzzled by Townsend's statement that firemen did not need railroad grade watches, too, at first, and actually doubted that the expert could be right. All the railroad firemen and brakemen that I knew had to have watch inspections just like the engineers and conductors. But since then I've seen a couple of other sources that supported Townsend's remark. I think they must be from the early years way way back before anyone can now recall. After all, before Web C. Ball established a standard for watch requirements there were stories that some engineers were even carrying alarm clocks with them. The standards changed as time went on, and there were over a thousand railroads in this country; each and every one with its own specifications. Someplace buried in all my paper stuff I know I have more information on this. If I can uncover it in this lifetime I'll post it here.

By the way, speaking of B. W. Raymonds, I posted a few pictures of five of these on this board December 15 that illustrated how the BWR models changed over the years. The two earliest had only 15 jewels. Keeping in mind that the BWR was considered a railroad grade watch from the very first, obviously the standard requirements changed as the technology changed.

Gentlemen, I read your stories with great interet and pleasure! I would like to thank you for taking the time to share with us your knowledge,experience and feelings.
Regards
Peter

Yep, I remember those days of the alarm clock

Cool pocket watch Dave, of course you look old enough to be around when they had wood burners for locomotives ha ha!

Here are a couple of interesting segments from two articles. The first is from the Bloomington, Illinois Daily Bulletin October 22, 1913:
"Pictures of sweethearts, wives or chubby-faced youngsters at home no longer will adorn the crystals of watches used by engineers, conductors and other employees of the operating department of the Illinois Central Railroad as a result of a new rule made by the management...
If he (the engineer) sees on the crystal the picture of his wife, who may have run away with another man, it is reasonable presume that his thoughts will center on her and the despoiler of his home rather than on the approaching train."

The second is from the Bulletin again, March 26, 1913:
"...Arrangements have been made with the jewelry stores to sell these watches on four monthly payments the payments to be taken out of the men's pay by the company. Ten watches of standard make are included in the list which the men are permitted to carry with the following stipulations, 17 jewel patent register, lever set, and adjusted to both heat and cold and tested in five different positions...
The stipulations state that the watch must bear the number and brand of one of the mentioned makers and not be stamped as made for any particular jeweler with his name in place of the trademark...
It is also stated that a more severe censorship will be maintained over the weekly and quarterly watch inspections in the future and especially forbids the men to set the watch at any time themselves..."

Whenever I meet someone whose ancestors worked for the railroads in the old days, I ask them if they remember his railroad watch. The answer is almost always, "yes", and they either own it or it belongs to someone else in the family.

David do you happen to have a fob for that watch ? Id really like to see it.

This an addition to the railroad watch requirements. This was issued in 1953 and was still in effect when I went to work in 1960 for the Northern Pacific Railway signal department. This old mimeographed rule is kind of hard to read, but has good information. In later years I don't remember any specifications as far a number of jewels or size in the watches.
My 214 Accutron was my first in my opinion, RR approved watch.

While doing some research I found this information about a watch purchase in the early 1900's where an RR employee did sign contracts to have money with held from their checks to pay for watches.

I don't know if my formatting will transfer over or not, I have trouble posting information that iis listed in tabs.

Tom

For value received, I have this day signed watch order for $38.00 in favor of Capitol City Jewelry Store, or order, for deduction from wages due and to become due me as follower

From Month of Oct. wages $8 00
“ “ “ Nov. “ 8 00
“ “ “ Dec. “ 8 00
“ “ “ Jan. “ 7.00
“ “ “ Feb. “ 7.00

"In case I leave your employ voluntarily, lay off, am discharged or any doubt arises about my being retained in services, I authorize you to deduct the sum of all unpaid installments from any balance of money due me.

"[Signed] Hugh Burton Marshall."

A duplicate of the above was delivered to appellant railway company on October 10, 1912. When appellee was discharged, he went to the Jewelry store, and offered to return the watch, and pay $8 In full settlement of the contract. The offer was refused. When discharged, he had earned, in October, the sum of $42.75. Of this sum $22.70 was earned previous to October 9th. He made a demand of appellant railway company for the $42.75, which the latter refused, because of the watch order. The company thereupon tendered appellee $4.75, in full payment of its liability to him. The tender was refused.

It sounds like he bought his watch the hard way. I wonder what kind of a watch it was.

Steve G.

Steve

The watch is not listed, apparently this case went all the way to the Indiana Supreme Court.

If I read it correctly in the 1st hearing it was found in his favor & that was appealed by the Railroad Co. & the Jeweler.

Then I think it went in the favor of the RR & Jeweler, because his position as a brakeman was not a position that was required to have a watch but then apparently it was illegal for a married man to sign a contract to have funds deducted from his wages without his wifes consent. So I am not to sure who came out teh winner in the end other than the attorneys for both sides, I am sure in the long run the court costs were way above the price of the watch.

Tom

That is a fascinating case, but you wouldn't think it would have gone that far, would you?

Several notes on this from my 30 years on the railroad.*

Anyone involved in the actual operation of a train or yard movement had to have a standard watch, and have it inspected regularly. As time went on the standards for inspection waned. Ultimately the standards for watches themselves declined from "A watch that conforms to the standards of the company," to "A reliable watch."

I've never seen anything written about a brakeman or fireman having the option of a lesser jeweled model.

Watches were available to any employee on payroll deduction through a company approved jeweler. This led to a problem with a certain suburban trtainman who got himself involved in one of the many, long running card games in the trainmen's room. He would be loosing money in the game, he would then go upstairs and buy a watch on payroll deduction. He would hock the watch and be off to the races once more. The company jeweler had standard jewelry items for sale as well such as a nice pair of earings for the misses, or a somthing for the secretary/passenger you just took to lunch. All available on payroll deduction.

Dining car waiters on many lines were not allowed to wear wrist watches as a sanitary precaution. It was once said the company feared the watch would fall into someone's soup. As a matter of pride, as they weren't required to do so, many porters,waiters,dining car stewards (the guy that served as the dining car conductor) Pullman porters, and Pullman conductors would carry railroad approved watches. I saw it more than a dozen times.

* 1969-1972 Brakeman, collector-fireman-engineer C&NW
1972-1982 Brakeman, conductor CMStP&P RR
1984-1999 Art director, collector, engineman CSS&SB RR