Well it may not be the first. I just picked this up gave it a quick service it’s running great, I have been told that this model/grade was RR approved if that is the case it must be close one of the first, can our experts confirm this, if its not it still a very nice early example, serial number 31,501 H H Taylor Elgin Ill, 1868, still have the original dust band, beautiful clear 15j Jewels

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A very useful appraisal of this and the other 15 Jewel grade 69 Lindell has mentioned is recorded in "Elgin Watch Co, Grade and Serial Numbers" by Roy Ehrhardt;

s/n 31501, H H Taylor reported in this post by Chris is #400 of FIRST MASS production of Grade 58 Railroad Grade* Adjusted 15J H H Taylor s/n's 31101-32000. There were four previous PROTOTYPE grade 58 runs totalling 115 movements;
100 = 25001-23100
10 = 30021-30030
4 = 30051-30055
1 = 30083

Grade 58 H H Taylor are Specifically marked RR on Pg 49 of ref Elgin document.

A total production of 28,354 Grade 58 is recorded within sn's 25001-441000

The Grade 69 properly referenced by Lindell is shown with a total production of 29,154 within sn's 101-898,000 making it the very first production watches to come out of the Elgin Factory.

Soon after these first production model 1 15 Jewel H.H.Taylor grade 58 and B.W. Raymond Grade 69 movements, Elgin revamped the movements with Elgin Patent Microregulators as the H H Taylor Grade 79 I sold yesterday on eBay.

Very nice watch Chris, I like these old keywinds, I picked-up one the other day for a song. H.H Taylor 18s serial#39562. I just noticed the one you have does not have a 'National Watch Co' dial, I thought these early ones should have the above mentioned dial, maybe someone could elaborate? Thanks Lindell & Dave for the extra information on this model, very informative.

Best Regards to All

Both, Chris and Dave's are nice indeed but the dial on David's watch is correct, since it was made in 1885 or so....Chris's watch is not because it was made in 1869 or so and should have the "National Watch Co." name on it....such as the one shown below....

Additionally, both are hunter movements and should be housed in hunter cases....

Elgin data that I have says both are RR grade but I don't think they would make it after the GREAT train wreck occured....

Regards,

Jerry

Hi All,

Were not all key wind 18s Elgin movements the same, and the cases had the wind hole in different places to align the movement correctly?

Steve

Here's my low serial number Elgin I recently picked up. It is in need of some repair, but well worth putting some time into it.

Abbot's Patent stem wind and lever set conversion adds tot he delight of this BW Raymond and will make a fine piece when all said and done. Now to find an appropriate case....

The Abbots conversion kits I have seen over the years all seem to be very well done. Machine work to plate have been excellent...My question is, some people seem to think it takes away from the value of the watch and others seem to think it adds to the watch value...Any thoughts...

My opinion is that the abbot's patent adds value. They bring a premium when selling typically. This is as with anything an opinion and I would not be surprised to hear of people not wanting them. They are very hard to case for sure if it is missing or incorrectly cased to begin with.

Another comparison for this is Ferguson dials. Not factory of course. If you saw a 16s 23j 60 hour bunn selling with a ferguson dial on it, there would be a group of followers wanting it and bidding it to its typical value or more. There would also be another group that wouldn't bid on it due to not having the correct illinois factory dial on it.

Jared

I am in the same pickle. The "Abbott" case needs to have a Lo@o@ong winding stem! The gain in complexety of design is akin to machining the Crankcase of a 1904 Friction Belt drive Harley converting it to an automatic geared three speed transmission.

The historical aspect of this ramping up of Elgin's model 58 is a fascinating study.

Apparently they were gambling on a HUGE increase of railroad work when this watch was made in 1868, as the next year the golden spike was driven on the Transcontinental Railroad, May 10th, 1869.

When the spike was driven, Elgin then already had a large stockpile of watches ready for what they figured would be the soon to be booming railroad industry in 1869.

Amazing forethought.

Regard! Mark

Thanks!

Yep, but it could also have been considered a real gamble too, as the so called 'Indian Wars' were still in the future when this watch was created, so there was chance that an operational Transcontinential Railroad could have been delayed for years, leaving companies like Elgin and others who were starting up at the same time to capture that market stuck with inventory for years!

Elgin could have tanked too!

Neat stuff to mull over when surrounded by your railroad history books.

Regards! Mark

To drag this to the top one last time...I was able to talk Chris out of this one, and have been carrying it every day for the past week and a half. I even carried with me on our vacation last week to the Biltmore estate in North Carolina.

It gains some when kept in pendant up position, and is on the nose when left on it's back, dial up, over night.

Not too shabby for a watch that's 144 years old!

I'm enjoying the heck out of it!

Regards! Mark

Thanks, Mark, for that update and it is simply amazing, to me anyway, that something as 'old' as your H.H. Taylor is can be so accurate with only a simple 'quick service' as Chris said he performed on it....

These ol time pieces are a true marvel....

Thanks, again for the update...

Regards,

Jerry

Agreed, and you're more than welcome, Jerry!

Regards !Mark

Here is my Elgin BW Raymond Grade 69 S/N 70784 with the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Dial

BW Raymond Grade 69 Movement

Looks like it's still in its hunter case too! VERY nice! The ones I keep seeing have been moved into open face cases.

Do you carry yours?

Regard! Mark

Hate to admit it, but I've enjoyed this watch so much, I just traded for yet another one, dated 1874 and keeping good time. Not great, but good.

What is it about these old 18s monster grade 58's that grab you?

It's about all I carry on a daily basis now, when wearing a pair of pants with a pocket large enough to accomodate it.

Sheesh!

Regards! Mark

Just don't fall out of a boat Mark or you will be a goner with all that metal! I really like the key winds myself and am fortunate to have an early Railway kwks. I personally think the Abbott conversion adds to the value but they are hard to find a case for. Did any of the watch companies offer the Abbott conversion as a factory product?

Update: It's been over a year since I acquired this watch, and I carry it religiously (meaning a lot )

Over the past year I've found it has slowly started gaining time in a 24 hour period, carried or not, and averages around a 2 minute gain a day. I've got the regulator whip pushed all the way over to slow, and it doesn't seem to make any difference one way or the other.

I know these old war horses were never made to be second spitting time keepers, but shouldn't it keep a bit better time than 2 minutes fast a day?

Quite frankly it's my favorite watch, and favorite CARRY watch, so I'm wondering if I should be concerned and have it gone through or just live with it?

Thoughts?

Oh, and I know that anyone who carries old watches and drives old cars already knows, these particular items KNOW when you're talking about them.

I just pulled out my watch to check the time, and it's keeping perfect time as we speak, and has not been reset since yesterday morning (a usual practice when I wind the watch for the day, but didn't require a re-set this morning for the first time in months).

So, I post a question about its time keeping problem, and now it's keeping perfect time. Go figure.

Regards! Mark

Those old iron hairsprings are VERY SUSCEPTIBLE to magnetic fields, try demagnetizing it.

Good idea, David! I never even thought of that!

Thank you! I'll try that tonight.

Regards! Mark

A related question....is it best to demagnitize a watch that's not running, or does it even matter?

Regards! Mark

It should not matter if it is running. With yours, I might slip a narrow folded piece of watch paper under the wheel in the space between the balance cock and the pallet lever jewel to hold the wheel still.

Thanks David.

Well, I demagetized it, and no change after running all night. It was 2 minutes fast with the regulator whip in center position on the scale. I moved the regulator back over toward the slow side.

I'll see if there's any change today, but that didn't seem to affect anything. Couldn't hurt either.

Anyway, she's headed to Chris in the morning for sorting out. I pulled out my backup model 58 to hold me over while she's gone.

I already miss her....

Regards! Mark

She's back from Chris, balance poised and more weight added. Innards still looked as clean and in running condition as before. We'll see how she times in.

Glad to have her back in my pocket!

Regards! Mark