I just received my Elgin 455 back fom being fully serviced. The regulator pigtail is disengaged from the adjusting nut on the curved screw and the watch gains about 2 1/2 seconds per hour.

I've E-mailed the watchmaker about the problem. He said it was fine when he mailed it. He suggested I just snap the pigtail back onto the nut and re-adjust the timing if necessary. (He also said, if I felt better about it, I could return the watch and he'd take care of it.) I have not touched anything inside the watch and won't until I decide whether to send it back or not.

I've not dealt with this gentleman before and I have some questions:

First, is it reasonable to think the pigtail became disengaged in the mail? (The watch was wrapped in bubble pack and the box was not damaged.) I would think these parts were designed to withstand the type of shocks the movement might have received in transit.

Second, Is it a simple matter of snapping the pigtail into the nut, or is there more to it than that?

Third, I've never had any success "playing" with F/S adjustments. Is there any secret to it? I don't have any special timing equipment but I only require reasonable accuracy.

I'd just like to know what I'm getting into. I'm here to learn and this could be an opportunity to learn how to time a watch. I also know that once I fiddle with it, it's my problem.

Thanks in advance.

Well let me say this it would have to take a heavy jarring to pop the regulator arm out of the adjusting nut, so in that case I would send it back. To answer your other questions you could easily and carefully move it back into place, hopefully the screw is centere near the middle of the range and not on the extreme left or right. If you decide to go that direction then you can just use your pc clock, and set the minute hand when the pc clock turns 00 so they match. In other words 4:05:00 and so on. Stopping the balance wheel is tricky so I would not do that. Let it run for a day and see how much it gains/loses. I think the regulator range is about =/- 15 seconds per day so that should cover your current time difference as long as the regulator is centered properly after the service. I use a toothpick to turn the nut so if I slip it does not scratch the movement. Turn to F or S depending on what is happen, losing or gaining and move in increments shown on the balance cock, the larger increments at first then the smaller sub-increments to fine tune.

Chris, I am not a watchmaker but I have put the regulator arm back in its adjusting nut before.... the watch had not 'just been adjusted' either....you won't damage the watch as long as you are very careful and lift the arm very gengerly, just enough to place it back into the groove on the adjusting nut....however, the timeing will change because of the movement of the arm one way or the other....

Obviously, this repair person is not local to you or you would simply take it back to him for the correction....

You may want to send it back to him anyway so that the timing can be re-adjusted....

I find it hard to believe that the arm would come out during shipment unless the arm is not properly seated over the balance cock....

Good Luck....

Regards,
Jerry

I've owned literally dozens of Elgins with these regulators, and I've NEVER received one with the whip 'jarred' out of the cradle. For a watch to have received enough of a jar in shipping to do that, I'd be more concerned about what ELSE could be wrong inside that movement!

Not saying it's impossible. Heck, ANYTHING is possible. The word here is 'improbable'. I've never personally experienced anything like that before due to shipping.... especially wrapped up as well as you say you received it.

If it were me, I'd just close it back up and send it back to be made right.

Regards !Mark

Thanks, guys, for your quick responses. I think I'll just mail it back. The guy is an hour's drive from here but he's been reluctant to do business face to face. He prefers using the internet and the mail. I really prefer someone who I can go see. I'm going to handle it his way, resolve this one, and move on.

I suspect that the watch was never timed. If the regulator range is only +/- 15 seconds per day, that isn't enough. The watch is gaining about 60 seconds per day. The regulator is presently set 3 marks slow.

I can't imagine how a bubble packed watch could sustain a shock sufficient to damage the watch without damaging the box (assuming the regulator was in the ball park in the first place).

I'm glad I didn't mess with it. I have enough watch projects on the books as it is.

BTW, using a toothpick to set the regulator is a great idea. So is using your PC clock as the your time standard. I set my watches so the second and minute hands cross their marks at the same time. I just note the "error". My life isn't all that "on time" anyway.

Chris where are you in So Cal.? I am in San Diego

Railroad standards were 30 seconds per week, I figure 4 seconds per day and the rest is padding. I normally expect the regulator to be centered after a clean/oil or service and running within reasonable accuracy that is available with a beat timer. Then I usually adjust it so that the watch loses less than 1 minute over 4 days, adjust then track it over 3-4 days and adjust if needed. If you want to use the pc clock and have everything zero'd then you can stop the balance with with a soft bristle brush when it nears 0, then set the hands a few minutes ahead of the pc clock and wait for the pc clock to match my setting. Or if you don't want to touch the balance just note the difference in seconds between your second hand and the pc seconds when the hour and minute hands match on both and just record that. The pc clock when tracking the NIST clock works fine and for me anything in the 30-60 second range per week if good enough for me.

David,
I'm in Ventura County, just west of the San Fernando Valley.

Chris, I went up there a few years ago and took a 4 day course at Ventura College in Pocket Watch servicing, cleaning and adjusting from Mr Ferdinand Geitner, Master Watch amd Clockmaker who runs "Montecito Clock Gallery", 1187 Coast Village Rd #10A, (805) 565 9097.

The course was sponsored by NAWCC Chapter 190, specifically under the direction of Paul Skeels, (805) 525 7325 (office#)

I would recommend Mr. Geitner for anything that needs fixing, explaining, or instruction, and NAWCC Chapter 190 as a very helpful local chapter of Horologists.

Me

Thank you, David, that's a great idea!

I am an uncurable tinkerer, and have had a love affair with machinery as long as I can remember. Within the past year, I've been smitten by american pocket watches. This interest has expanded to include watchmaking tools and machinery and the history of the watchmaking industry.

I also have a life. For this reason, I have to set limits on myself. I would like to gain a thorough understanding of how watch movements work. I would like to become competent in doing any repair work that does not require removing the top plate or balance cock.

I believe a person who disassembles a movement should be capable of inspecting the parts and correcting any problems that are found. I would rather trust this level of work to someone with greater skill than I am willing to develop.

I would like to get very good at casing and re-casing, working with hands and dials, repairing keyless works, adjusting regulators, and evaluating movements for any required repair work.

I would also like to be able to work on cases, remove dents, replace crystals, repair threads, hinges, loose bows, etc.

I would like to develop a relationship with a skilled watchmaker who can disassemble and repair movements when that is required.

For me, this is a hobby and an investment. It is not a business. I want to work at my own pace on projects of my own choosing and I want to have fun with it.

I presently have about 30 watches, mostly Elgins. By combining the above-mentioned skills with the material that is available in the marketplace, I believe I can build a nice collection of fully functioning watches for a reasonable investment.

This is almost getting comical. I packed up my watch ready to mail and sent the watch man an E-mail to let him know it's coming.

In the E-mail, I mentioned that the watch is gaining more than 60 seconds per day. He replied saying 60 seconds per day is considered acceptable for an antique (1920) watch but I can send it back if I wish.

I currently keep 11 watches wound and running, and some of them haven't been serviced in years. About a third keep near railroad quality time. The rest keep good time. This is the only one that is off anywhere near one minute per day.

But, I guess I just expect too much.

Hi Chris,

Unless there are problems that you are not prepared to invest some money in you should expect far better than 60s/d. Sounds like you have been given your first warning as what to expect in the way of service I think you needs ask other people that have used him, about the quality of work. Remember once the damage is done it is often irreversible and/or expensive to restore.

Christopher....BEWARE!!!!....

Of course I do not know who this 'watch man' is but I would not let him touch any of my watches.... Sorta like I heard a guy say one time about hiring an accountant....He said, "Ask the prospect what 1 & 1 is and if he says 2, fire him"....

An example:
Yesterday I received my Elgin, BW Raymond, grade 540, 23jewel that was my Father's railroad watch from the 1940's....Chris Abell had done a COA corrected a winding problem and installed a new crystal....
I removed the watch from the container and wound it fully....It was 1:00 PM....I set the watch to my PC and set it 5 seconds fast....As I am writting this post it is 26 min. past 12, noon, and the watch is still 5 seconds fast....not bad....

Thanks, Chris, for the super job on my Dad's watch....

Regards,
Jerry

I received the following E-mail message this morning from my watch guy:

"I reagusted your watch and it runs as good as it can get for a 80 year old watch. Tolerences on antique or otherwised used watches are long since gone and are way past their warranted performance. I'm shipping it back today."

I've not yet received the watch but I'm puzzled by what he says. He implies that old watches just get to the point where they can't keep good time any more.

I don't expect railroad accuracy (if you want an accurate timepiece, buy a quartz watch) but I would expect a properly serviced watch to be accurate to within a minute or two a week. Is that unreasonable? I have several old watches that haven't been serviced in years that do that well or better.

I should receive it tomorrow. Hopefully, everything is OK.

Christopher
As Chris Abell said 60 seconds fast or slow in 24 hours is way too much ..The 80 year old railroad watches will still keep accurate time if they have not been messed up from a bad repair job.

I would look for another repair person. Unless your Elgin has been hacked by some nut case in the past it should easily time within RR standards because it was a RR approved watch. Take this as a learning experience, I get a checklist when I get my watches back from repairs. The person uses a 3 jar cleaner, inspects and polishes the pivots, disassembles and cleans the jewels with pegwood. The mainspring is checked and if weak it is replaced, if it is ok it is cleaned and re-installed. The watch is timed for two days and I expect the regulator to be centered or +/- 1/4 from center at most. I might have to do some minor adjustment to the regulator but not much and I can tell the watch was cleaned and when a watch is repaired correctly you can see it in the swing of the balance wheel. Also I like to have before and after pictures when guy works on my watches he takes pictures and emails them to me. Here is a picture of my Elgin grade 150 and he explained other than some surface rust from past moisture exposure the watch was in good shape but you can see he even took the time to edit in some text. And this is indeed a lever set Elgin 150, there were some 20J versions during the first run and most are pendent set except for the last run which can be lever set but will have "Elgin Nat'l Watch Co" on the barrel bridge and not the main plate.

I got my B. W. Raymond back from the watch guy. He did get the regulator pigtail back onto the screw adjustment OK.

I wound it up and it lost about 9 seconds in the first 24 hours. The good news is the regulator is 2 marks off the slowest possible setting. By the time I finish adjusting it, I figure it should be somewhere in the middle of the F/S scale.

Judging from the above comments, I'd better find a better watch guy. I'm afraid if I have another adventure with this guy, I'll get laughed off this forum!

Glad it worked out, in life sometimes you learn by the "knocks". I don't know what people charge but I have dealt with 2 people and they both do good jobs but one does not like to tackle stuff like broken staff, he mostly does wristwatches, so for clean and oil I will send operating watches to him, the other guy also does good work and he takes on anything, one is closer the other is on the other side of the country. Charges range from 85-130 so I am happy with the work and the price, and both charge extra for mainsprings now that the price on springs had headed to the moon.

David,
Thank you for recommending Mr. Geitner to me. I was able to go up and see him today. Fascinating guy. I'd love to take one of his classes some time.