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South Bend Studebaker "Click" to Login or Register 
Picture of Jack Davis
posted
I was previewing watches today for an auction on Sunday and ran across a South Bend Studebaker. It is 16s, marked 8 adj., serial #1142393.

According to Shugart's book this would be a Model 2, 21J, with 5 adj but I don't find a listing for 8. How about some help from the South Bend experts out there? Thanks!

Jack
 
Posts: 208 | Location: Elgin, Illinois USA | Registered: November 30, 2002
posted
Lindell,

Do the honors!

Jack,
You are going to hear all about it from a true SB expert.

Somebody wake the South Bend man up! Big Grin

Aaron Bereiter
 
Posts: 945 | Location: Geneva, Illinois in the U.S.A. | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted
Jack,

Here's the basic story... This year the "Complete Guide to WATCHES" has a misprint on that line. It should be "8-adjustments" rather than "5P" on that line. The "5P" is correct but not as stated on the movement. You have the pendant-set "STUDEBAKER" on dial and movement 16-size "8-adjustments" mail order watch we call "the mail-order Studebaker" (more about that later) to avoid confusion with The Studebaker high grade RR watches. If you think that's confusing already, just read on!

By the way, 8 adjustments are the usual 5 positions plus heat, cold and isochronism...

 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted
Continued...

Your serial number is from c.1927 and it should have a painted dial with Studebaker on the dial. Some disreputable sellers over the years have switched the dials between one of these and a South-Bend RR Grade 227 to create two watches with Studebaker on them. Due to the plate layout being the same basic design as the highly sought-after Grades 223 and 229 The Studebaker dishonest sellers have caused a lot of confusion.

A watch like you have with a porcelain South-Bend dial on it would then resemble the much higher valued 223 and the 229 grade watches. That is hard for the uninformed buyer to understand, and many have been misled. No The Studebaker or grade 227 should say "Studebaker" on the dial, and no "mail order Studebaker" should ever say "South-Bend" on the dial.

Your watch was sold using mail-order advertising by the "Studebaker Watch Company" a name I have used for several years in my watch collecting hobby. They began the mail-order business in 1923 selling a Studebaker 12-size and soon added the 16-size to the mix. Before long it branched out into all sorts of jewelry, Swiss-Made wristwatches and even radios. The mail-order business was based almost entirely on easy credit and when the depression hit in late 1929 the payments suddenly stopped. That brought a sad and sudden end to the whole watch-making operation in South Bend Indiana.

For additional reading, I'd be happy to eMail my "THE INCOMPLETE HISTORY OF SOUTH-BEND WATCHES" to anyone who might find a brief story of South-Bend and its products of interest. Just request it by contacting me at... southbend@roadrunner.com

Hope this is found to be of help!

Lindell

Wink

Below, "Studebaker" mail-order 16-size to be correct will have "Studebaker" on the dial...

 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
IHC Life Member
RR Watch Expert
Picture of Ed Ueberall
posted
Lindell, feel free to jump in and correct any errors I make in trying to answer this.
There is a difference between "adjustments" and "position adjustments". There are only six possible position adjustements, as follows:
Dial Up
Dial Down
Pendant Up
Pendant Right
Pendant Left
Pendant down
Only the first five were ever requird on watches approved for service on North American railroads, although a number of companies made and advertised movements "adjusted to six positions".
However there are adjustments in addition to those of position. These are:
Isochronism (this means that the watch will run at the same rate when it is almost fully wound up as it will when it is almost fully wound down).
Heat
Cold
Of course the last two have to do with temperature compensation.
Anyway, this makes for a possible total of 9 adjustments. Your Studebaker was adjusted to five positions (not pendant down), heat, cold and isochronism, making a total of eight. Now the other important distinction is between watches marked "Studebaker" and those marked "The Studebaker". The former were watches marketed by mail order during the 1920s. While of reasonable quality, they were all pendant set, and so the 16 size movements (they were also made in 12 size) would not have been acceptable for railroad service. The "The Studebaker" movements were made much earlier and in far fewer numbers than the "Studebaker" movenets. These were 16 size (Grade 223, 17 jewels; Grade 229, 21 jewels), and 18 size (Grade 323, 17 jewels; Grade 329, 21 jewels). All are lever set, marked "adjusted to five positions" (which is equivilent to 8 adjustments, as isochronism, heat and cold adjustments are implied), and are a much higher quality in both fit and finish. All were acceptable for railroad sertvice.

Ed Ueberall
NAWCC 49688
IHC Member 34
The Escapement
 
Posts: 620 | Location: Pooler, Georgia in the U.S.A. | Registered: November 23, 2002
Picture of Jack Davis
posted
Wow! Lindell, thanks for the instant in-depth education. It does say Studebaker on the dial although it doesn't look nearly as clean as the example in your pic.

The movement is the same although I don't recall seeing 21 jewels on the movement...I may have overlooked it.

Unfortunately the watch isn't working. When I nudged the balance wheel it swung back and forth a bit, but also seemed to shift a bit from side to side. It is part of a lot of 10 pockets that include a couple of Elgins, a Waltham and 4-5 dollar watches...Bullseye, Scotty, etc.

Jack
 
Posts: 208 | Location: Elgin, Illinois USA | Registered: November 30, 2002
IHC President
Life Member
Picture of Lindell V. Riddle
posted
Jack,

You want to be careful about getting me started on South-Bend Watches, glad Ed and I could both be of help to you. The dial on the example I showed above is the nicest original I have found. They started out white and over the years most have slightly yellowed like this one, or have turned gray. You are fortunate to have the original dial. Sounds like yours might need a balance staff in addition to normal service.


Ed,

Your explanation of the various adjustments is the clearest I've ever read. That's in line with my..."8 adjustments are the usual 5 positions plus heat, cold and isochronism..." as stated above.

Only one point to your narrative is to bring up the only The Studebaker you didn't mention. Smile You'll recall South-Bend built some Hunter-Cased 21-jewel grade 328 The Studebaker movements that were also fully RR approved. It's not unusual to forget the 328 as so very few exist today. All known examples fall within just 200 serial numbers 541001 and 541200 although 1,000 were blocked. I have 541033 and 541049 in my collection.


"The Studebaker" 541049 grade 328 is 14K Hunter-Cased South-Bend...

 
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
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