I had a local man show me a few watches he inherrited and I wasnt sure about this one. He wanted an idea of the value. I know what it would be worth if it were a simple 17 jewel Rockford but since the dial and movement are both marked C&O Special I wasnt sure what to think as it is the first I have seen. Is this actually the RR company logo or just a private label. Any input would be great where I could pass it on to him. Serial # 580606 Sorry for poor pics they were taken with camera on phone.
If we assume this "C & O Special" to be related to or in any way referenced to the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway it would then call for a considerable premium over the same condition watch without those markings. I have seen fully spelled-out "Chesapeake & Ohio Special" marked Illinois movements, they were from that same late 1890s or very early 1900s time-frame and they are very uncommon. Like you, this is the only Rockford like this that I am aware of and when you have only seen one there is nothing to compare it to so it is difficult to make a comparison.
Sorry I cannot be of more help,
Lindell
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Rob, The 1987 "Gold Book specifically refers to the "C&O Special" Grade 930 Model 9 17J Rockford as being valued at $500-$600. Then adds $150.00 if the signed "C&O Special" dial is included. $750.00 at todays value means you can tell your friend he is advised to insure it for at least $1500.00.
A total of 8770 Rockford Grade 930's were made. These Model 9 lever set movements were the "last" 18s Rockfords.
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
Ok guys thanks it gives me some sort of idea of what to tell him. I just didnt want to puff it up to more than what it is, especially in the poor shape it is in. I think he wanting to sell it and the others so I will keep it at a fair value so because like most if I tell him high value he will expect me to pay it and not have room to make anything. Ya Eric it is really a shame about the dial it isnt like you can dig through a draw for a better one.
It may be worth trying to find a dial with a good outside chapter and getting them combined to make it a presentable one again. it may be a little risky but the reward could be worth it.
Thanks,
Jared
Posts: 1626 | Location: North Dakota in the USA | Registered: December 09, 2009
Rob, your first post said; "He wanted an idea of the value." then after we tried to help, you commented "(if) I tell him high value he will expect me to pay it and not have room to make anything."
. . . My mistake.
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
Well since no one can say for sure what it may be worth as we do not have it to compare to I wanted to keep it at a value I felt would be fair. We know by looking in books sometimes prices are never what they say so I took info you gave me and came to a fair estimate from that. I appreciate your input but if I told him value of 1500 knowing he would want to sell it he may never have sold it whether it was to me or anyone else. If you are interested in it at anywhere close to that price I can let him know. I know I am not taking that chance without seeing a example I could compare to. I already have problems with buying because someone down the road gave an outragious estimate on an item. Long story short I just wanted to give him a fair value estimate I felt he could move it at or me if I bought it at a discount under value I told him.
Approach "A"... The way I would price it as suggested in my previous post would be to begin with how you would value a Rockford of similar condition but without the uncommon "C & O Special" and add a premium for the markings. Allowing a 50% or perhaps higher premium might be a starting point. Then deduct for service and deduct again to allow some profit for you.
Approach "B"... You have the fact David was able to show how this watch was valued in top condition twenty years ago so that could be another way to start into this. The condition of the example you found which is way below what was indicated in the book David consulted would to me, cut that retail value significantly and then you have to figure in a profit for yourself.
Using that second approach you could take the $750.00 which was an estimated retail value twenty years ago and double that to $1,500.00 as David suggested but then you would have cut it back down substantially due to the obvious condition issues, then you would have to reduce it further to cover servicing which would still be retail value. If you are making an offer you must then lower it again to allow you a profit margin in order to arrive at a reasonable number.
No matter what, in business when making a buy you must always "deduct for reconditioning" and also "allow for a reasonable profit" and this is especially important when starting out at a retail valuation.
Hope this helps,
Lindell
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Thanks Lindell I fully understand buying and selling I just wasnt sure on this watch, first whether it was just an ordianry private label or in fact a marking for a rr and also the rareity of it, both making a big difference in price. I appreciate Dave's and others answers and it made me come to the conclusion I felt was best to the person. I was merely stating I didnt want to tell the person high end price with the condition it was in. If it wasnt for Dave's input I would have just told him a lot lower value closer to what it would be without the markings. One thing that bothers me in me buying so much is when people either go on internet and find one over inflated price of a watch that may not even be same exact watch as they have and expect that price or when they come back with an over inflated insurance estimate from some jeweler and expect that price. Less than 50% of the time I can make a deal on watch(es) from any of the public that do not deal in watches and usually due to the fact of over inflated estimates someone gave them down the road. This is why I wanted or like to give more reasonable estimates so they can move it if they so desire to and not holding on for years trying to find that price.
On the other hand I like to be honest in telling a person what the true value is or what they are selling for since I learned real young in this business you can not trust everyone. I can remember having a nice gold hunting case brotherhood ball watch and had no idea what it was after contacting someone most of us know and asking politely for a fair value he just told me it was a different variation of a ball watch and it was only a ball waltham not worth any more. I ended up selling it to him dirt cheap and I found out immediately after what it was and when I confronted him he just blew me off. So I always promised when I got bigger in the business I would always treat others as I would want to be treated in a honest fashion.
Thanks Rob, I am with you on full disclosure my friend.
Much of what I suggested above is for the benefit of those reading this topic.
What happened to you, the way you were intentionally deceived and misled in the sad instance you described is a blight on our hobby. You and I know we should always be fair and explain exactly what we are doing and how we arrive at our prices. I usually show the "Complete Guide to Watches" current values when making a purchase and explain exactly how I arrived using a simple formula of stated value, less reconditioning costs and an allowance for reasonable profit should I choose to resell the item. That can help to level the playing field and explain away those over-inflated prices found in some internet venues, use of the watch guide values provide a good starting point.
As an example, several years ago I was called on by attorneys to help settle a rather large estate of a deceased watch collector. Using the current watch guide values and using the formula I explained in my earlier post impressed the lawyers and allowed me to buy the entire estate at a price that was fair to the heirs and that I could live with.
My parents taught me... "Honesty is the best policy" ...and that is the simple truth.
Be well my friend,
Lindell
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Yes I realize that Dave I never had a problem with your answer and thank you for your help. I was just stating when someone asks me a value I just try to stay resonable to what I feel it sell for. I did use your estimates but also added the condition issue would hurt the sale, I did add what I would give for it which was lower explaining I havent seen one sell so I would be taking a chance even with the price I gave plus I have to make some for it to be worth my time. Again Thanks
