Would an 18s Waltham model 1883, production date of 1886, have possibily been accepted in railroad service in the late 1880's?

I know 15j and higher saw use, but what about the 11j?

The reason I ask is the Shugart's master list of accepted railroad grade watches (not necessarily 'standard' watches) included the Crescent Street with 17j-23j, as well as the model 1883, but no jewel number listed. Can I assume then that all jewel numbers on the 1883 might have been considered railroad grade at one time or another?

Regards! Mark

Each railroad had its own standards. The earlier you go, the more varied and lax these standards were. On some railroads alarm clocks were used.

Most railroads that had any real standards had a 15 jewel minimum. Take a look at "Just what is a railroad watch" at http://www.pockethorology.org/Railroad/Railroad.htm (note: the chapter 174 link is not working tonight. I hope it is working when you try this link, because Kent Singer wrote a great summary.)

Don

Thank you Don.

I was kind of thinking that when I wrote the question. Considering mine is an 1886 manufacture date, it could well have been accepted in a few locations. I've read Kent's fine article before, and note that most of his information does not really address anything made prior to 1890, so it could have been accepted based on the time practice in the mid 1880's. Who knows.

Not that I'm trying to justify my watch IS a railroad watch....just curious as to where it would have fit in the scheme of things with what I've read recently at the time of it's introduction to the world.

In reading one of my old Bulletins lately, I also read the short article of the letter found stating that Waltham was offering the service of converting the pendent set model 1883's to lever set to the Long Island and Rock Island Railroads as late as 1902, so once again...who knows. Mine is a pendent set, by the way.

Either way, I love this monster of a watch, and carry it quite often.

Thank you sir!!

Regards! Mark

The myth was for many years that Ball started railroad time standards in the 1890s. That turned out to be an exageration, but still the rules were not very consistent until that time.

An article in the Bulletin many years ago includes a survey of watches used on the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy railroad in 1889 and 1890. The issue is October 1995, page 590. It surveys the brands used and some timing statistics, for example what percentage of each brand was off more than 30 seconds per week. This railroad had the "standard of excellence equal to what is know amoung the gereral Amercian movement as the '15 Jeweled Patent Regulator, and adjusted to heat and cold.'"

Of the 2986 watches in the survey that are described by this article, 950 or 32% were Walthams. This was the most common brand at this time. (Hamilton did not even exist then.) Elgin was second at 19%. Aurora, Columbus, Hampden, and Rockford were other popular brands. Some 25 brands are listed including Tissot, Standard, Peoria, Nicoud, Fredonia and so on.

So on this railroad at this time, you could have any watch you wanted, as long as it had 15 jewels and some sort of micrometer regulator and a temperature compensated balance. This railroad was trying to study and improve watch performance. The survey showed that about 17% failed to keep time to the 30 seconds a week level in June of 1889. They got this down to 5% by June of 1890. If a watch could not keep this time, the employee was being forced to replace it with one that could.

The same story was happening on different railroads at different times. Gradually they were trying to identify the problems of good timing and figuring out standards. It was a time of great flux.

Don

Excellent information! Thank you!

So, I can safely assume that an 11j would not have been considered for railroad use, regardless of date, as the 15j was the 'standard' during this time period, unless it was for use on a railroad with extremely loose timing requirments.

This lines up with known family pieces I have that were used on Ohio railroads during this time period that are adjusted 15j watches.

Makes sense. Still, it's a great old HUGE timepiece, and even though it didn't make muster as a railroad watch, it's still chugging away after 121 years, and keeping decent time too!

Thank you again for that excellent and VERY useful information, Don!

HIGHEST regards! Mark

While this thread shed much more light about the history of the enforcement and actual practice of RR watch use, I have little doubt that the vintage 11 Jewel you have surely had brothers and cousins "in RR service".

Many Railroaders used "lesser" watches that could achieve the accuracy specification.

Some of our 7 Jewel movements will, if kept running in the "mid to high windup range" of their power, meet said specifications, and "some" of our "railroad watches" could not meet that specification without considerable "renovation".

One of the more interesting aspects of the "30 seconds/week" is how this would be tested and proven at that time. There were, of course timepieces that would surpass that error, but it was a "mean deviation" number, and to establish actual spec accuracy could easily have been a real major task. I would like to see an actual description of the test method to "prove" this accuracy.

What the railroads (and Ball) accomplished was a systematic method to finally "certify" the timepieces, and assure their regular maintenance.
The "specifications" for the US-Made, Arabic dialed, high Jewel count, Lever-set, double rollered, etc., etc., was intended to limit watches used to the expectations of the Railroads (and U.S. watch manufacturers) for a "good" watch.

I think there was at least one Railroad man who at some critical moment wished he had your watch!

Thank you David!!

As to the last photo....for all WE know, he may HAVE been carrying my watch!

HIGH regards! Mark