It has been a few months since I have purchased any watches but I saw one on ebay that was hard to pass up so I made the seller and offer and they accepted it.

It is a Hampden 16 size hunter still in a Deuber hunter case that is marked 23 jewels, "NR" in the flag with a serial number in the 1,043,2xx range. I had only thought the 104 was a 23j variant in the 16s with the much later model 5 "Special Railway" but I guess some early grade 105s were marked 23j and had "NR" in the flag rather than "SR" (104) which would tend to follow what Hampden did the with the 18s 23j New Railway and the 18s 23j Special Railway, with the SR being the costlier movement. From what I have found they did not make many of these grades but maybe Phil or Deacon can comment a bit on this. I will post pictures when it arrives, but I just could not let this pass by at the price it was listed at.

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...9104152/m/7431017672

You might check out this link from the Hampden research section of this website. Should answer your question about how many made.

Here is a shot of the movement

Case back

front cover with a slight ding

Dial needs replacing but this style dial is fairly common

Nice watch Claude,
The dial isn't that bad. A little judicious touch up would improve it greatly.

In the listing the case looked like it had brass on it but with a magnifier I can't find any. You can see how the owner wore it because the detail on the covers is not as strong as on the other side but not to the point of wear through. The case could use a good cleaning and there is no wear on the pendant but where the release screw for the stem you see some screwdriver markings. The case lids are not sprung or the latch worn out, 90 degree for all lids, it does have F. A. Carney engraved on the dust cover. The case is a Deuber "Special" so it is one of the better Deuber cases. For 300 it was worth a splurge.

Also in the 1980 Ehrhardt, he lists it as a 23j 105 "New Railway" and I know that people will say there is no documentation to that fact but if you see the 104 and 105 23j version side by side, the 104 is marked SR in the flag and the 105 NR in the flag so there is some logic to his comments. In the case of the 18s 23j versions one was the Special Railway and the other the New Railway with the SR being the more costly version.

Nice watch Claude. I think the watch is quite scarce. I keep looking for the early 16 size 23 jewel Hampdens and they are hard to find. The Dueber case is a big plus also.

Thanks Deacon, as much as I like Elgins I enjoy collecting Hampdens and the price on this one was too good to pass on. There was a sidewinder version of the 104 of the same vintage but it went for close to 2 times what I paid. One of the ones that I still need to get is the model 5 23j Special Railway which are rare birds also.

Claude,

You came across some rare and desirable items!

I recall Lindell explaining to me that "SR" meant Special Railway and "NR" was the New Railway designation. The fact that Hampden occasionally used the same Grade Number for more than one Jewel-Count also causes confusion.

Don

Schussel's chart showing some of the 23-Jewel Hampden numbers:

Claude I have 2 model 5 Special Railways. I do not know why they were not labeled 104 but I have long thought they are quite scarce.

Deacon I think prior to the early 1900's most companies were making the movements appealing to look at since if you look at Elgins and others some were marked with grade numbers/names others not. I think the changing RR standards after the turn of the century forced companies to clearly mark the grade on them, either by name or by a number. Hampden chose a mix of names or numbers, Hamilton went with the number scheme and Illinois mostly names, which is true for Elgin also.

Early grades like the 23j SR or NR 16s Hampden were well before these standards kicked in.